TU and F4 Camshaft Follow-on Discussion

[acannell]

okay, so to test my understanding...and I am not nitpicking here or trying to promote anything over anything else. I dont know enough to do that anyways lol. Im trying to test my understanding and get up to speed.

I've seen the following info/comments on the R5

243/235 Intake/Exhaust Duration @ .050
496/508 Intake/Exhaust Gross Valve Lift
Centerline 113.5

Here are a things Chris has said about the R5. I am only posting what Chris said because AFAIK hes the only one with any knowledge of the R5 specifics unless the purchasers of it decide to post the cam card.

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and super hi boost levels may not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold."

"Our new cam is scheduled to be installed in a vehicle with the BMF intake and our Hybrid Header, 3"SV and exhaust system."

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

Chris also mentioned a back to back comparison test but I'm not sure to what cam.

Okay so from all this I am confused. It would seem to suggest that the R5 cam is optimized for both a lower pressure ratio (higher flowing intake and exhaust) AND a lower boost level. Why the lower boost level? Why would the boost level matter at all? Isn't the only thing we are dealing with here the pressure ratio?

[Gaboon]

Pffft, my cam is bigger than your cam.

Do what I did, get drunk and buy a cam from a guy in a parking lot....Worked for me! It's how I make my best decisions.

[Frank]

okay, so to test my understanding...and I am not nitpicking here or trying to promote anything over anything else. I dont know enough to do that anyways lol. Im trying to test my understanding and get up to speed.

I've seen the following info/comments on the R5

243/235 Intake/Exhaust Duration @ .050
496/508 Intake/Exhaust Gross Valve Lift
Centerline 113.5

Here are a things Chris has said about the R5. I am only posting what Chris said because AFAIK hes the only one with any knowledge of the R5 specifics unless the purchasers of it decide to post the cam card.

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and super hi boost levels may not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold."

"Our new cam is scheduled to be installed in a vehicle with the BMF intake and our Hybrid Header, 3"SV and exhaust system."

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

Chris also mentioned a back to back comparison test but I'm not sure to what cam.

Okay so from all this I am confused. It would seem to suggest that the R5 cam is optimized for both a lower pressure ratio (higher flowing intake and exhaust) AND a lower boost level. Why the lower boost level? Why would the boost level matter at all? Isn't the only thing we are dealing with here the pressure ratio?

I am a bit confused also by what was said.

Let's break it down. Positive intake pressure means that you have more air than the engine can breath naturally. It increases the flow velocity to allow for more air to enter the cylinder. Cam profile directly relates to how the cylinder fills and how it empties. This directly relates to cylinder efficiency.

[turbovanman²]

As said, a cam is kinda like a guessing game for us, just because we don't have the money, R@D that big corporations like Comp Cams has. No cam will work the same for everyone, like Shadow's setup works great with the F4 but someone with a header it might not. Almost everyone on this forum has a different setup, I don't think you'll find anyone with exactly the same engine, which is kinda cool. So you need to talk with the vendor, do some cam specs searching and pick what works for you.

[Rattlesnake]

When my Rattlesnake was around I tried different cams and they all had ups an downs; the parameters where one was great the other lacked and the other way around.
I wanted something unique so I kept the one that performed the best with what I had and fine tuned it even further to my specific combination. After many sleepless nights of talking to myself and several trips to the road course to test where in the rpm range the cam had to improve, finally got my numbers and sent them to the grinder. After it was done and installed with the right springs, oh my! And the only thing I fine tuned was the ramp rates on the profile.
Since this was one of a kind please don't ask because I will take that info to the grave, no cam grinder will benefit from my findings. That cam is the only DNA piece that I keep in my house from Rattlesnake.

Reinaldo Moloon

[Shadow]

okay, so to test my understanding...and I am not nitpicking here or trying to promote anything over anything else. I dont know enough to do that anyways lol. Im trying to test my understanding and get up to speed.

I've seen the following info/comments on the R5

243/235 Intake/Exhaust Duration @ .050
496/508 Intake/Exhaust Gross Valve Lift
Centerline 113.5

Here are a things Chris has said about the R5. I am only posting what Chris said because AFAIK hes the only one with any knowledge of the R5 specifics unless the purchasers of it decide to post the cam card.

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and super hi boost levels may not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold."

"Our new cam is scheduled to be installed in a vehicle with the BMF intake and our Hybrid Header, 3"SV and exhaust system."

"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

Chris also mentioned a back to back comparison test but I'm not sure to what cam.

Okay so from all this I am confused. It would seem to suggest that the R5 cam is optimized for both a lower pressure ratio (higher flowing intake and exhaust) AND a lower boost level. Why the lower boost level? Why would the boost level matter at all? Isn't the only thing we are dealing with here the pressure ratio?

I believe I may be able to straighten out the confusion;

When Chris said this;
"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

He was trying to take a shot at the Charger, so he Failed to see the Contradiction in what he said. He (Chris) and many others I'm sure, still Don't Get that the Charger IS the eg. of an 8v with a Better flowing intake And exhaust manifold, capable of as much or more power than pretty well any other out there (Excluding Warren's of course ) at sub 25psi.

Even with the Holset that I am Purposely running the small 9cm turbine housing on to give the car GREAT street drivability, it still lays down Well over 400WHP @ sub 25psi.

IF I wanted to make it a Drag car only, and didn't care about street driving "threshold" I could make 500WHP @ sub 25psi easy. (really surprised that so few realize this after all this time)

So, to even say header vs ported stock exhaust manifold is to Not understand what you're talking about. Remember (and this is Not a shot, just the Truth) Chris is a Salesperson. He did Not design this cam and can answer No Q's himself on it. All he can do it forward the Q's to "someone who knows" (or hopefully does) and then attempt to regurgitate the answers accurately. (and there is Nothing wrong with this, as long as everyone Understand that is what is happening)

The more Proper way to say it would be " This cam may not work as well in a set-up that has High drive pressure vs one that has Low drive pressure (a much better flowing exhaust set-up) because header or exhaust mani has Zero to do with this. You can bolt a header on and have just as high Or higher drive pressure as a ported stocker, there are Way more components to consider than jusy cast exhaust manifold vs header!

[Shadow]

Matt,
Forget comparing the duration of the F4 to the TU new camshafts. Comparing a cam Dr./Cam Pro valve events #'s against one that is degreed in by hand is of no value. The #'s posted by Chris is from a Cam Pro, and not degreed in on an engine. The #'s just will not be accurate from the Cam-Pro because it is based on a translating follower and not a pivoting follower (like our 8V motors).
Read post # 254-260 if you want more info about this.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...F4-Cam!/page13

To answer your question Matt, according the #'s I received from Cindy or her husband James, the LSA of the F4 is 116 and duration is 213/204 @.050. Intake installed centerline was 109. These #'s look right to me, but if these #'s seem wrong Rob, post up your #'s, as you've stated many times that you degree your cams in. I would love to get some confirmation on these #'s as I did not degree the F4 camshaft in.

I have installed and degreed in the camshaft that Mike W. has installed in his GLHS into another HP GLHT. It has more lift, more intake duration and 114 LSA compared to the F4 specs that were supplied to me.

What I would like to hear is someone that actually degrees ANY ONE of these camshafts in and posts the real #'s. IMO, putting any camshaft in straight up is just a wing and a prayer of it being installed even close to where it should be. For example, the last camshaft I degreed in was supposed to have an a 105 IC. Straight up it was 119 IC! So quite a LONG ways off. When I did degree it at 105 IC, valve events looked way wrong! Ended up centerlining that camshaft at 114 or 115. Vehicle ran great! I just assumed I got bad info on intake centerlining from the person that sold us the camshaft. No way would it have performed well at 105 IC.
Todd

I am all over this and should have some good info soooooon!!!!!!

[glhs875]

I believe I may be able to straighten out the confusion;

When Chris said this;
"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

He was trying to take a shot at the Charger, so he Failed to see the Contradiction in what he said. He (Chris) and many others I'm sure, still Don't Get that the Charger IS the eg. of an 8v with a Better flowing intake And exhaust manifold, capable of as much or more power than pretty well any other out there (Excluding Warren's of course ) at sub 25psi.

Even with the Holset that I am Purposely running the small 9cm turbine housing on to give the car GREAT street drivability, it still lays down Well over 400WHP @ sub 25psi.

IF I wanted to make it a Drag car only, and didn't care about street driving "threshold" I could make 500WHP @ sub 25psi easy. (really surprised that so few realize this after all this time)

So, to even say header vs ported stock exhaust manifold is to Not understand what you're talking about. Remember (and this is Not a shot, just the Truth) Chris is a Salesperson. He did Not design this cam and can answer No Q's himself on it. All he can do it forward the Q's to "someone who knows" (or hopefully does) and then attempt to regurgitate the answers accurately. (and there is Nothing wrong with this, as long as everyone Understand that is what is happening)

The more Proper way to say it would be " This cam may not work as well in a set-up that has High drive pressure vs one that has Low drive pressure (a much better flowing exhaust set-up) because header or exhaust mani has Zero to do with this. You can bolt a header on and have just as high Or higher drive pressure as a ported stocker, there are Way more components to consider than jusy cast exhaust manifold vs header!

I guess your Charger is the baddest thing on the planet. Give it up!!! I thought this was a place to share and have fun! Your posts that toot your own horn nearly makes me puke!! If i get banned because of this post, so be it!

[acannell]

I believe I may be able to straighten out the confusion;

When Chris said this;
"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

He was trying to take a shot at the Charger, so he Failed to see the Contradiction in what he said. He (Chris) and many others I'm sure, still Don't Get that the Charger IS the eg. of an 8v with a Better flowing intake And exhaust manifold, capable of as much or more power than pretty well any other out there (Excluding Warren's of course ) at sub 25psi.

Even with the Holset that I am Purposely running the small 9cm turbine housing on to give the car GREAT street drivability, it still lays down Well over 400WHP @ sub 25psi.

IF I wanted to make it a Drag car only, and didn't care about street driving "threshold" I could make 500WHP @ sub 25psi easy. (really surprised that so few realize this after all this time)

So, to even say header vs ported stock exhaust manifold is to Not understand what you're talking about. Remember (and this is Not a shot, just the Truth) Chris is a Salesperson. He did Not design this cam and can answer No Q's himself on it. All he can do it forward the Q's to "someone who knows" (or hopefully does) and then attempt to regurgitate the answers accurately. (and there is Nothing wrong with this, as long as everyone Understand that is what is happening)

The more Proper way to say it would be " This cam may not work as well in a set-up that has High drive pressure vs one that has Low drive pressure (a much better flowing exhaust set-up) because header or exhaust mani has Zero to do with this. You can bolt a header on and have just as high Or higher drive pressure as a ported stocker, there are Way more components to consider than jusy cast exhaust manifold vs header!

It would be interesting to know if there could be two different cams, on the same engine, which would result is significantly worse or better performance overall depending on boost level alone.

Does pressure ratio versus absolute boost pressure follow a linear relationship or does something happen at some point where pressure ratio starts skyrocketing even though boost pressure is only increasing slowly?

[Shadow]

I guess your Charger is the baddest thing on the planet. Give it up!!! I thought this was a place to share and have fun! Your posts that toot your own horn nearly makes me puke!! If i get banned because of this post, so be it!

??? How do you figure? (am I missing something here?)

The Charger is what it is.......plain and simple! Not I or you can change that Fact. It IS making More power on less, (smaller turbo, no header ect) and Verified MPH than Any other 8v save Warren's.(possibly Less boost as well)

IF that statement is False......Please correct with proper info:

Ban you, for what? lol I have zero issue with you stating Your opinion, but IF someone is doing more on less, please do tell?

[Shadow]

It would be interesting to know if there could be two different cams, on the same engine, which would result is significantly worse or better performance overall depending on boost level alone.

Does pressure ratio versus absolute boost pressure follow a linear relationship or does something happen at some point where pressure ratio starts skyrocketing even though boost pressure is only increasing slowly?

That will greatly depend on a # of things, mostly though, the PR of the compressor wheel and the size of the turbine housing/ wheel combo. Generally speaking though, you will either Run the turbo out of breath (entire system including turbine housing and wheel can Flow everything the compressor can make) or you will reach a point where the exhaust side (turbine housing and wheel) start to run out of flow and drive pressure starts to rise quickly.

These two eg's are assuming nothing in between IS the restriction. IF the head or head/ cam combo or intake are too restrictive than a # of variable parameters come into play.

[turbovanman²]

I believe I may be able to straighten out the confusion;

When Chris said this;
"A camshaft that might work well for a vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost levels would clearly not be the best choice for someone with a better flowing intake and exhaust manifold running sub 25 psi."

He was trying to take a shot at the Charger, so he Failed to see the Contradiction in what he said. He (Chris) and many others I'm sure, still Don't Get that the Charger IS the eg. of an 8v with a Better flowing intake And exhaust manifold, capable of as much or more power than pretty well any other out there (Excluding Warren's of course ) at sub 25psi.

!

Dude, its not a shot at anything, no one is out to get you, chillax, not everyone knows your combo.

It would be interesting to know if there could be two different cams, on the same engine, which would result is significantly worse or better performance overall depending on boost level alone.

Does pressure ratio versus absolute boost pressure follow a linear relationship or does something happen at some point where pressure ratio starts skyrocketing even though boost pressure is only increasing slowly?

I'd start a thread on this, this thread will go sideways even more, lol.

That will greatly depend on a # of things, mostly though, the PR of the compressor wheel and the size of the turbine housing/ wheel combo. Generally speaking though, you will either Run the turbo out of breath (entire system including turbine housing and wheel can Flow everything the compressor can make) or you will reach a point where the exhaust side (turbine housing and wheel) start to run out of flow and drive pressure starts to rise quickly.

These two eg's are assuming nothing in between IS the restriction. IF the head or head/ cam combo or intake are too restrictive than a # of variable parameters come into play.

This contradicts what you said about intakes having zero affect on a cam.

[acannell]

That will greatly depend on a # of things, mostly though, the PR of the compressor wheel and the size of the turbine housing/ wheel combo. Generally speaking though, you will either Run the turbo out of breath (entire system including turbine housing and wheel can Flow everything the compressor can make) or you will reach a point where the exhaust side (turbine housing and wheel) start to run out of flow and drive pressure starts to rise quickly.

These two eg's are assuming nothing in between IS the restriction. IF the head or head/ cam combo or intake are too restrictive than a # of variable parameters come into play.

So what do you think of this:

Lets say we want to develop a cam selection flow chart for a given engine.

Something like "Measure drive pressure. If > 1.5:1, no benefit in increasing duration. If > 2:1, reduce exhaust and intake restrictions and remeasure, then go back to step 1. If ~ 1:1, increase duration by xx degrees" etc..

And then slowly hone those decision making steps into something really precise?

[OmniLuvr]

vehicle with a ported factory manifold and 39 psi boost

that would be shadows car exactly, like not even saying 30 psi, but exactly 39 psi as shadow has ran in the past...

[acannell]

I'd start a thread on this, this thread will go sideways even more, lol.

Id like to hear it, and why not in this thread? This thread really has nowhere to go besides discussing cams in general and then when we get detailed specs on the R5 we (the un-knowing types like myself) will have a better foundation on which to further discuss the R5..lets hear it!

I would assume there are turbine maps analagous to compressor maps?

Im starting to get itchy...I want to measure the daytonas pressure ratio lol!!

[Shadow]

This contradicts what you said about intakes having zero affect on a cam.

Simon, please try to pay attention to what is being said and what you are asking, otherwise you will end up throwing More confusion into this then needed.

There is No contradiction, the Q you asked before was about BOOST pressure having an effect on a cam, now you're talking about intake manifolds. lol

[Shadow]

I guess your Charger is the baddest thing on the planet. Give it up!!! I thought this was a place to share and have fun! Your posts that toot your own horn nearly makes me puke!! If i get banned because of this post, so be it!

I have run into this before, so let me see if I can't give you my perspective; There is a reason they say "Only a fool represents themselves in a court of law." Simply because someone Else (lawer usually) can say Anything they want, they can Make you out to be the Best thing since sliced bread and it is Accepted!

On the other hand, IF anyone get's up and speaks highly of themselves (even if it's 100% True and the Layer was Lying through his Teeth) they are Deemed conceited and full of themselves.

When I first started having to speak to a lot of people about the Charger, I referred to it as "my car". It didn't take long and it was ME that wanted to Puke! lol I just couldn't Stand hearing myself say that over and over again, and yes, it Felt like i was talking about Myself.

This bothered me on several different levels, but what bothered me Most was the Fact that there were more people involved in the Charger's success than just me.

It was not too long after that I adopted the phrase "The Charger" rather than My car. This Worked for me! So well that I don't even notice when I talking about it. It has become it's Own entity and I feel No connection to my person when talking about it.

Having said that, I Still hear where you're coming from. I have asked several people over the years what they think about me addressing the Charger in that manner. Most have said, "Ya, it must work because I Never thought of you as having a Big Head and I've read and heard you talk about it till the Cow's come home! lol"

Others have said it makes No difference, and a Few Others even said it was worse! lol They said it makes it sound like I'm giving the car More importance by doing that, and that it was almost like the Royal "We" that the Queen uses, speaking of it in the third person!

So, I really can't win one this on and I have come to accept that. I spoke up because a Bad eg. was given and it needed to be corrected. Most Want to know the Truth about things so they can make Better decisions on their own builds. IF I were to let people say whatever they want in reference to the Charger and Not correct the info, how does that Help the community to See what simply Works?

Peace Bro

[moparzrule]

Pffft, my cam is bigger than your cam.

Do what I did, get drunk and buy a cam from a guy in a parking lot....Worked for me! It's how I make my best decisions.

lol, best post of the thread.

Honestly I'm just thankful that I'm not the one arguing this time. I see good points from both sides being argued, but really I just don't care. Real results coming soon, until then all this bench seat racing is just dumb.

[zin]

Here I go wading into the fray with my $.02...

Engines are air pumps, the fewer and less restrictive obstructions they have in getting the "air" in and out, the better they perform, regardless of whether or not they have forced induction or not, though those items can be a "point of constipation" as a wise man I know liked to refer to them.

In my experience, I've noticed that, when starting with a "factory" engine, the exhaust is usually the first and biggest "point of constipation", then we move on to the air cleaner/throttle body and intake, especially since their job just got tougher because we are now moving more air due to the freed-up exhaust.

Once the intake/exhaust is "optimized", we have to look at the cam and head. Usually the next biggest gain is going to be with a cam change, in no small part due to the improvements made to the intake and exhaust.

If everything else will support it, it is now time to upgrade the head.

Much like a turbo selection, one's goals will drive the need for various parts/modifications, and what works on one combo, may not work so well on another... it's really about setting the (realistic) goal, and putting the parts together that best suit your goals. If you really do your homework, you won't have to build it 50 times, maybe only 6-7!

We can really get into the weeds so to speak and start talking about opening/closing events and RPM ranges for a given duration or how they affect tuned intakes, but with our cars it's kind of a mute point. We don't have a lot of choice, there a maybe 4-5 different (non-OEM) cams to choose from, and without both .006" and .050" duration numbers for all the cams being considered, it's still kind of a crap shoot.

And even then that only tells us how fast acting the cam is...

Boost is even kind of irrelevant as it is basically a measure of restriction, a totally stock engine may need a 30+ PSI to make the same power a well modded engine does at 20PSI.

Lots of variables, so even a "back to back" test would only be valid for that engine, your proverbial mileage will vary.

Don't know if that was fully relevant, but I hope it was helpful to some/most.

Mike

[Gaboon]

lol, best post of the thread.

Sad thing is, I'm really not kidding...