Charger LOVES the F4 Cam!

[cordes]

Sorry, I was referring to the whole engine, not just the cam.

A lot more of us need to take the time to do things more thoroughly. I'm probably more guilty of it than most on here.

[shelbyvnt2]

That's what I am talking about. Hopefully someone on here that understands cam specs will comment on the cam doctor results. Thanks

We will be introducing a couple of new roller cams in the next week. One mild and one wild. They are NEW (NOT regrinds) and they are already in stock. We are just waiting on the manufacture to finish reading the specs off a Cam Doctor. In the past we have been left in the dark as well by our suppliers regarding specs. We will provide as much information as possible for those that want to know. I expect to have the information by next week so they should be up on our site at that time.

Thanks!

Chris-TU

[Oggie Fisher]

Don't mean to hijack.
Chris - do you have a ball park on the pricing for the cams?

[Shadow]

A lot more of us need to take the time to do things more thoroughly. I'm probably more guilty of it than most on here.

^^^THIS is what seperates the men from the boys. Not rocket science, just good ol attention to detail, Excellent maintenance record and paying attention to those who have a consistent record of success.

The Dr. brings up a good point and exactly why I specifically stated that I'm Only talking about which cams have been Proven to make the most Power. Not talking about a torquer cam or R/V cam or touring cam or road race cam as none of those have any place in My build goals.

So please understand what you're asking and Exactly What it is that I'm answering when you ask a Q. I can't tell you which cam will pull you over a hill on less throttle, but I Can tell you which cam will gain you 3-4mph in the 1/4 mile while any others tested didn't do much better than the stocker (less than 1mph gain)

[Chris W]

Don't mean to hijack.
Chris - do you have a ball park on the pricing for the cams?

There will be a one time introductory price that will be under $300.

Chris-TU

[John B]

^^^THIS is what seperates the men from the boys. Not rocket science, just good ol attention to detail, Excellent maintenance record and paying attention to those who have a consistent record of success.

The Dr. brings up a good point and exactly why I specifically stated that I'm Only talking about which cams have been Proven to make the most Power. Not talking about a torquer cam or R/V cam or touring cam or road race cam as none of those have any place in My build goals.

So please understand what you're asking and Exactly What it is that I'm answering when you ask a Q. I can't tell you which cam will pull you over a hill on less throttle, but I Can tell you which cam will gain you 3-4mph in the 1/4 mile while any others tested didn't do much better than the stocker (less than 1mph gain)

How has the F3 done from what has been heard? I have one I've never taken out of the tube yet.

[Oggie Fisher]

Dialed in? Now that's a phrase that's all but foreign on this site. I'm aware of only a few people that degree their cams in the TM world. Of course, that's primarily because most of us are running a factory cam of one type or another.

At the risk if betraying my ignorance, assuming your running a stock cam, the head & block haven't been decked, and you're running a non-adjustable cam gear, is there anything dialing in the cam will tell you besides weather you have the timing right?

[turbovanman²]

A lot more of us need to take the time to do things more thoroughly. I'm probably more guilty of it than most on here.

I am probably the guiltyist,

[cordes]

At the risk if betraying my ignorance, assuming your running a stock cam, the head & block haven't been decked, and you're running a non-adjustable cam gear, is there anything dialing in the cam will tell you besides weather you have the timing right?

Actually it can. I seem to recall a very old post from Russ J. who stated that if you add up the maximum factory tolerances for the sprockets you could be up to 7* off in a worse case scenario. I'm sure that's a very low probability event, but there are factory cars out there like that since they made over a million of them.

[GLHS60]

"Dialing in the cam" takes all production tolerances into consideration, so if your dots are all aligned correctly the engine will run to factory specifications. However, due to the considerable variances from engine to engine, cam to cam, sprockets etc. "dialing in the cam" can increase/decrease output at a specific RPM so advancing the cam might produce benefits to say, a heavy 2.2 automatic, but hinder a full built Holset 2.5 for example, as retarding generally helps high RPM output. Most aftermarket V8 cams are built with a few degrees advance built in, as in most engines some advance is beneficial. Our engines on the other hand often benefit from some retard, if high RPM output is your priority. These comments are "general", not cast in stone, so experimenting is what gives the results.

In general, the main thing in "dialing in a cam" is determining the LSA, or lobe separation angle, the V between the peaks of an intake and exhaust valve lobes on a cam. If the LSA is say 112 deg, than that interprets to the point where the intake valve should reach full lift, and the cam is considered "straight up". Advancing or retarding the point where the intake valve reaches full open is the "dialing in" part.

It should be noted that as the cam turns at exactly 1/2 the speed of the crank, this makes it impossible for the cam timing to be out 180 deg., so a full engine cycle requires 720 deg of crank rotation vs. the cams 360 deg.

So, "dialing in a cam" can be very tedious, but experimenting with an adjustable cam gear can be rewarding if you can measure or feel the results. Also, the marks on an adjustable cam gear are just for reference, as zero on the gear might be in fact advanced or retarded,
that would have to be verified with a degree wheel if you really wanted to find "zero advance", or "straight up".

Thanks
Randy

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

At the risk if betraying my ignorance, assuming your running a stock cam, the head & block haven't been decked, and you're running a non-adjustable cam gear, is there anything dialing in the cam will tell you besides weather you have the timing right?

first up , putting the degree wheel on it will tell you if your parts are machined accurately - just 'cause a bunch of timeing marks and key ways say it's straight up - don't mean it really is

things have tolerances and some things are just .. wrong - sometimes

I read the adjustiable cam gears aren't accurate - by severial degrees though older ones may have been or were better

once you know "where the cam is" then you could chase the best advance or retard setting for your use

once you've figured out any variance from what the timeing marks say the markings on the adjustiable gear/pulley become revelant to the cam's position as you would now know it to be

[cordes]

first up , putting the degree wheel on it will tell you if your parts are machined accurately - just 'cause a bunch of timeing marks and key ways say it's straight up - don't mean it really is

things have tolerances and some things are just .. wrong - sometimes

I read the adjustiable cam gears aren't accurate - by severial degrees though older ones may have been or were better

once you know "where the cam is" then you could chase the best advance or retard setting for your use

once you've figured out any variance from what the timeing marks say the markings on the afjustiable gear/pulley become revelant to the cam's position as you would now know it to be

I believe there have been multiple batches of cam gears which were incorrectly marked over the years. Some of which are way out. Degreeing the cam is the only way to know for sure.

[crusty shadow]

use a degree wheel to find out where "straight up" is on the cam, adjust the adjustable cam gear to "zero" the cam then you advance or retard from there. otherwise you are really just guessing.

[4 l-bodies]

We will be introducing a couple of new roller cams in the next week. One mild and one wild. They are NEW (NOT regrinds) and they are already in stock. We are just waiting on the manufacture to finish reading the specs off a Cam Doctor. In the past we have been left in the dark as well by our suppliers regarding specs. We will provide as much information as possible for those that want to know. I expect to have the information by next week so they should be up on our site at that time.

Thanks!

Chris-TU

Chris good to hear that us TM guys will have more cams choices in the near future. That is great news to hear. I just wanted to throw my .02 cents in about Cam Dr. or Cam Pro specs. First of all I am a big advocate of degreeing camshafts in. I almost run every cam I install on a Cam-Pro stand and can tell you this with quite certainy. All general types of cam reading devices operate using a translating follower. Translating follower examples would be bucket and pushrod type of followers. Our 8v vehicles use a pivoting follower. This is also known as CORA (cam on rocker arm).
When we put a camshaft from our 8V engines on a Cam Pro or Cam Dr. the specs will not be accurate because we have pivoting followers and we are running the camshaft on a device that is designed to read only translating followers accurately.
The lobe lift will be accurate, but other events will not be. There is softwear programs out there that attempts to convert a profile used on a translating follower to a pivoting follower. You might want to check if your guy is using that softwear program. I believe it is called Audie Technology Valve Pro.
In my experience of reading cams on Cam-Pro plus and then degreeing them in by hand is that the Cam Pro duration will read lower than the camshaft reading in the engine. So, I usually only use the Cam-Pro's specs on a new camshaft profile to compare to camshafts previously measured by a Cam-Pro.
IMO, if you want real world readings, and something that the end user can actually use to degree their camshaft in, degree them in by hand. Since you only have a couple different designs, these could easily be done in an afternoon, and you could bring them to market ASAP. If you are skeptical about what I am saying, take your Cam-Pro readings and then degree one in by hand on an engine stand and see what you find.
Todd

[4 l-bodies]

I believe there have been multiple batches of cam gears which were incorrectly marked over the years. Some of which are way out. Degreeing the cam is the only way to know for sure.

This is very true. One Fidanza pulley done a few years ago was 4° retarded! Another that I just bought a few months ago was 2° advanced. Couple that with crankshaft gears, resurfaced block and head, and you easily be off by a full tooth should the stacking all go the same direction. That motor mentioned above using the 4° retarded pulley needed over 10° advance to bring the camshaft to it's intended intake centerline. I ended up advancing the camshaft pulley one full tooth (9°) just so I could have some adjustablity with the cam pulley.
Todd

[Shadow]

All Good points Todd, I have to admit, Degreeing in my cams from almost the very beginning And being lucky enough to have known where to dial them in to is prob one of the #1 reasons we were able to move forward with such consistency.

BTW, What 8v are you working on that you think a 110 LSA is going to work well on? Or is it just something that you always wanted to try?

[Shadow]

How has the F3 done from what has been heard? I have one I've never taken out of the tube yet.

I have no feedback on the F3, So unfortunately I can't help you there

[4 l-bodies]

All Good points Todd, I have to admit, Degreeing in my cams from almost the very beginning And being lucky enough to have known where to dial them in to is prob one of the #1 reasons we were able to move forward with such consistency.

BTW, What 8v are you working on that you think a 110 LSA is going to work well on? Or is it just something that you always wanted to try?

All the original slider cams that Mopar used at least for turbo applications ran on 110 LSA. I'm hardly the only person that has found that our motors seem to like a tighter LSA than what conventional wisdom would suggest for a turbo profile. That Clevite 110 LSA cam with 220 something duration that Tom was looking at in the other thread, might be an improvement over a stock slider or roller.

IMO, increasing LSA (with increased duration) betters idle quality but softens the midrange some. The closer you can get to ideal pressure ratios (like you enjoy), the more your engine will require a camshaft with a profile that resembles a nitrous or supercharged profile. I don't think you would be looking for that tight of LSA, but I also think the F4's 116 LSA is a bit much. Many cam grinders are afraid of overlap in turbo applications, but with a well matched turbo (much larger than 20+ year old factory way of sizing), one shouldn't be reluctant to try a camshaft that has some more overlap than our current turbo roller choices. With a bunch of negative overlap, there are some pretty large pumping losses happening.

For example, I installed a camshaft a little bit ago that has 114 LSA and the same exhaust duration and another ten degrees more intake duration and .030 more lift than the F4 in a friends car (active SDAC member). He is evaluating it as we speak. Initial thoughts were impressive. It is a very nicely built 4 dr. l-body with a 50 trim stage 2 turbo and lots of other goodies (along with your swingvalve). This vehicle may never see a dragstrip, but after driving it, it screams upper 11 second car with very good steet manners. This is running pump fuel and boost levels in upper teens to low 20's. After driving this car my impressions are it could maybe still use more camshaft! I may try something even bigger for my car. The camshaft I may try next was designed for NA application. 112 LSA with yet more lift and duration. I'm inclined to believe that with a decent flowing upper end, that one could benefit from yet a more aggressive camshaft. Compared to other HP applications, our largest turbo roller camshafts would be considered mild. I know my cylinder heads flow better @ .550 lift (or higher) than they do at .430 or .470 lift.
Todd

[Force Fed Mopar]

Chris good to hear that us TM guys will have more cams choices in the near future. That is great news to hear. I just wanted to throw my .02 cents in about Cam Dr. or Cam Pro specs. First of all I am a big advocate of degreeing camshafts in. I almost run every cam I install on a Cam-Pro stand and can tell you this with quite certainy. All general types of cam reading devices operate using a translating follower. Translating follower examples would be bucket and pushrod type of followers. Our 8v vehicles use a pivoting follower. This is also known as CORA (cam on rocker arm).
When we put a camshaft from our 8V engines on a Cam Pro or Cam Dr. the specs will not be accurate because we have pivoting followers and we are running the camshaft on a device that is designed to read only translating followers accurately.
The lobe lift will be accurate, but other events will not be. There is softwear programs out there that attempts to convert a profile used on a translating follower to a pivoting follower. You might want to check if your guy is using that softwear program. I believe it is called Audie Technology Valve Pro.
In my experience of reading cams on Cam-Pro plus and then degreeing them in by hand is that the Cam Pro duration will read lower than the camshaft reading in the engine. So, I usually only use the Cam-Pro's specs on a new camshaft profile to compare to camshafts previously measured by a Cam-Pro.
IMO, if you want real world readings, and something that the end user can actually use to degree their camshaft in, degree them in by hand. Since you only have a couple different designs, these could easily be done in an afternoon, and you could bring them to market ASAP. If you are skeptical about what I am saying, take your Cam-Pro readings and then degree one in by hand on an engine stand and see what you find.
Todd

Good info, and verified for me. The same thing was explained to me (and others) on Speedtalk after I posted some seemingly confusing numbers from Crane Cams on an '08 4.7 cam they ran on a Cam Doctor for a guy.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40492

[Shadow]

All the original slider cams that Mopar used at least for turbo applications ran on 110 LSA. I'm hardly the only person that has found that our motors seem to like a tighter LSA than what conventional wisdom would suggest for a turbo profile. That Clevite 110 LSA cam with 220 something duration that Tom was looking at in the other thread, might be an improvement over a stock slider or roller.

IMO, increasing LSA (with increased duration) betters idle quality but softens the midrange some. The closer you can get to ideal pressure ratios (like you enjoy), the more your engine will require a camshaft with a profile that resembles a nitrous or supercharged profile. I don't think you would be looking for that tight of LSA, but I also think the F4's 116 LSA is a bit much. Many cam grinders are afraid of overlap in turbo applications, but with a well matched turbo (much larger than 20+ year old factory way of sizing), one shouldn't be reluctant to try a camshaft that has some more overlap than our current turbo roller choices. With a bunch of negative overlap, there are some pretty large pumping losses happening.

For example, I installed a camshaft a little bit ago that has 114 LSA and the same exhaust duration and another ten degrees more intake duration and .030 more lift than the F4 in a friends car (active SDAC member). He is evaluating it as we speak. Initial thoughts were impressive. It is a very nicely built 4 dr. l-body with a 50 trim stage 2 turbo and lots of other goodies (along with your swingvalve). This vehicle may never see a dragstrip, but after driving it, it screams upper 11 second car with very good steet manners. This is running pump fuel and boost levels in upper teens to low 20's. After driving this car my impressions are it could maybe still use more camshaft! I may try something even bigger for my car. The camshaft I may try next was designed for NA application. 112 LSA with yet more lift and duration. I'm inclined to believe that with a decent flowing upper end, that one could benefit from yet a more aggressive camshaft. Compared to other HP applications, our largest turbo roller camshafts would be considered mild. I know my cylinder heads flow better @ .550 lift (or higher) than they do at .430 or .470 lift.
Todd

Again, I agree with everything you're saying here, and sometimes (often times) I forget that what I'm pursuing with the Charger is Not everyone elses pursuit.

I'm Still fighting low end TQ on 26" slicks running 7 psi, so the 116 LSA doesn't bother me at all and the fact that everything is working so good and holding together makes me think I should leave it that way, at least for a little longer.

So I forget that most are running heavier street cars/ G-bodies and maybe Want that extra low end grunt. That, and I'll admit that I have become conditioned to the total lack of info regarding cams for our mtrs. So when I answered shelbyvnt2's Q, I was just cutting to the chase and giving him the best advise I could with the experience I have in order to Not leave him in the dark, wandering around the forums for years trying to make an informed decision when there is No information to do that with!

For a while there I was hearing rumours of an F5, but have Never found one. I've even contemplated designing my Own roller cam, to the extent that the current common roller blanks would allow. (maybe that would become the F5? ) but I doubt I would go as tight as 110 LSA, 114.........Maybe 112?

The bottom line is it takes 10 years in this community for a Holy cow discovery to take (if it takes at all) and talking things to death, rather than just going out and Proving them......Bores me.

Don't get me wrong, YOUR discussion doesn't bore me, and I think you're on the right track pursuing what you are, but it's tough to hear someone's Q get answered by "there's 100 variables that make it impossible for anyone to give you a definitive answer". I Don't see it that way.

There Are answers Right Now that are Proven. I just don't like the idea of an individual going through 10 years and 5 cam swaps to come to the same conclusion I did when that is Not Their pursuit..........