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Thread: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

  1. #1
    boostaholic
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    The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Hey guys...i just wanted to get some feed back on how i should go about managing my fuel and boost...heres my specs:

    Car: 89 Daytona shelby
    Engine: 2.5 bored over .020 with Mahles and shotpeened rods and Cast Crank, balance shafts removed.

    Tranny: a555 with TU's t2/t3 setup clutch
    Head: tvanlant's customed built and ported head
    Cam: Stock
    Springs: HD Mopar springs
    Turbo: TU's S-60 Turbo (Not a TRUE s-60 has smaller exhaust side)
    Exhaust: 2.5 glasspack side exit
    Intercooler: Paired Stock t-2 coolers

    Now, i plan on installing a hp fuel pump.
    And would like to know the ecu side....should i set my own cally up? what size injectors, fuel rail? I would like to get this daytona in the 12's...

    LMK what every thinks what route i should go. Thanks!!

  2. #2
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    The best is standalone, followed by you doing your own cals, followed by a custom chip by FWD or Shelgame.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  3. #3
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    DAVE'S RIGHT!, standalone are awesome, but on the expensive side. but pm DR.''SHELLGAME''
    Tell him, your symptoms,He tell you what you need.redo your cal,and yu'll be flying
    Plus he's a awesome person,

  4. #4
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by BF/STOCKER SPIRIT View Post
    DAVE'S RIGHT!, standalone are awesome, but on the expensive side.
    Who's Dave?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  5. #5
    turbo addict
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Dave stop playing, you know who you are. Always trying to confuse people

  6. #6
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    IMO there is nothing that a standalone can do that the stock electronics can't for 1/10 the price, and 1/10 the setup hassle.

    I would run 72pph injectors with stock electronics running one of Rob's Turbonator cals.

  7. #7
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    IMO there is nothing that a standalone can do that the stock electronics can't for 1/10 the price, and 1/10 the setup hassle.

    I would run 72pph injectors with stock electronics running one of Rob's Turbonator cals.
    Sure, if you like having numerous cals sent as each one is wrong. You can't tune a car over the internet, you can get close but unless you can alter the cal yourself, it will never be right. I've been playing cal tag for years, getting tired of it and the lost potential.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  8. #8
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Sure, if you like having numerous cals sent as each one is wrong. You can't tune a car over the internet, you can get close but unless you can alter the cal yourself, it will never be right. I've been playing cal tag for years, getting tired of it and the lost potential.
    Sorry, I assumed that the OP would be setting all of this up himself. With an afternoon's worth of reading making your own custom cals is super easy. I am sure that reading how to properly use any standalone will take just as long if not longer since most of us have a good understanding of how our ECUs work from the start.

    At the end of the day you will have to tune with a socketed ECU, or a stand alone. They both do the same thing in the end and if you can't figure one out, it is pointless to try the other. At that point it is easiest to pay someone else to do your work for you.

  9. #9
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Sorry, I assumed that the OP would be setting all of this up himself. With an afternoon's worth of reading making your own custom cals is super easy. I am sure that reading how to properly use any standalone will take just as long if not longer since most of us have a good understanding of how our ECUs work from the start.
    I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap.

    Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect.

    And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info...

  10. #10
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap. If someone can't socket a board they should give up and pay someone else to do all their work

    Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect. Are you saying that a standalone will give people perfect results right out of the box?

    And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info... As opposed to a standalone which is run by a hand full of people on the board, while the custom cals are used by many who are the people that usually weigh in on every tuning thread?
    See red text.

    ETA: My real issue with a lot of the people who proport that a standalone is better etc. is that they portray it as some magic bullet which will run smoothly from day one, and be easy to figure out.

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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post

    ETA: My real issue with a lot of the people who proport that a standalone is better etc. is that they portray it as some magic bullet which will run smoothly from day one, and be easy to figure out.
    Nope, I don't see that at all. I was thinking of doing my own but honestly, I don't have the energy, its mostly a time thing. The guy next door does the tuning for standalones, the hardest part is installing it, then an hour or 2 later, its tuned,

    Some also don't have that luxury so over the counter cals are still a good option,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  12. #12
    turbo addict
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Oh goody another great debate!

    If I had an 8valve I would deff consider making my own cals, the main drawback to me is not having realtime adjustments, man that would be a PITA. I could see starting up the car for the 1st time and while it warms up, have to keep a log of where it needs slight adjustments as it warms up, I dont think I could do it. I would prob burn through many versions and have several notebooks full of adjustments. Man that would be a lot of wasted time IMO. Put it this way go to the dyno and see how much tuning you can do in the time allowed.

    I like the fact that as its warming up or idling I can just hit 1 button and add or remove fuel or timing.

    Now bang for the buck and the features are great on the Cals
    Last edited by Speedeuphoria; 06-03-2008 at 02:28 PM.

  13. #13
    boostaholic
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    I've never worked with the older ECMs, PCMs, whatever you guys call them on your cars... but it just seems to easy to me with the NGC1 PCM on my car. Might be a little more involved for you guys, but I'm sure the principle is the same.

    I've only had to flash 3 tunes to my PCM, and it takes all of 3 minutes to do it each time. Sure I can't adjust things instantly, but it doesn't take long at all. Minor adjustments take a few seconds to make, save the file to the handheld, flash the PCM with it, and done.

    First flash nailed part throttle, but idle was weird. 2nd flash fixed the idle. 3rd flash nailed WOT. It's all in the #'s.

    Simon, I've tuned a dozen or so vehicles over the internet. Now the way I am able to do it on the more modern vehicles is a lot easier than what you guys have to do. There's no mailing anything back and forth, I can just send updates via e-mail. However, it can be done, and you can get excellent results from it. Granted someone sitting with you on a dyno should produce the best results, but that's not always an option for a lot of people. As long as you have a proper way to datalog, and your tuner knows how to read the logs you send him, you can get a great tune over the internet.

  14. #14
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Oops Mean't Simon,

  15. #15
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Quote Originally Posted by SebringLX View Post
    Simon, I've tuned a dozen or so vehicles over the internet. Now the way I am able to do it on the more modern vehicles is a lot easier than what you guys have to do. There's no mailing anything back and forth, I can just send updates via e-mail. However, it can be done, and you can get excellent results from it. Granted someone sitting with you on a dyno should produce the best results, but that's not always an option for a lot of people. As long as you have a proper way to datalog, and your tuner knows how to read the logs you send him, you can get a great tune over the internet.
    Just out of curiousoty, are most of the cars you've done this with MAF based systems or MAP based? Also, datalogging with OBD2 based stuff is 1000x easier than anything from the mid to late 80's.

    I say it all comes down to what you are most comfortable with tuning (if you want to tune it yourself). The factory systems all have the best base tune (obviously) and have been made very flexible recently. As an example, has anyone looked at the feature list for the Turbonator cals lately ? Not to mention that the knock support is normally better with the factory electronics since stand alones have a wide audience and knock sensing facilities vary greatly between makes and models.

    If you don't want to tune it for yourself, then a standalone may be a better bet since it's kind of rare to find a tuning shop with mid 80's Chrysler experience (as in Simon's case). Documentation is also more readily available for standalones. I've actually read *complaints* about the amount of documentation that comes with AEM standalones, lol. Vendor cals are a viable option here too, but your setup needs to be really close to what they specify the cal for or you're bound to have problems.

    One thing that really irks me about the way some other groups do recals for factory ecus is that people charge for every revision. Changing to new injectors costs another couple hundred bucks on top of the injectors, even if they're just changing a 2 or 4 byte constant. Some of our vendors do a really good job here, they'll tweak your cal without charging you extra $.

    In the end I'd probably take a factory system that's been figured out over a standalone. Certinaly with the amount of work that's been done on the smec codebase(s) it's hard to justify putting a standalone in a 88/89 car if you're going to try and tune it yourself.

  16. #16
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    For doing multiple cars or only wanting to burn once a Romulator sounds like the ticket. For SMEC's I love my flashable setup but the guy that was doing them stopped. I know some people can get the LM's to be flashable too. I love being able to tweak the car a bit if I want. A wideband and one of the 3 bar cals out there are all you really need.

  17. #17
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Don't take my post as offensive, it's not meant to be.

    I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap. If someone can't socket a board they should give up and pay someone else to do all their work
    Wait the minute, what does socketing a board have anything to do with making one's own calibration?

    In my case,
    I sold sell my TII calibation for $60-$75 + shipping.
    Bought a socketed SMEC for like $40-45 shipped, stupid cheap.
    Junkyard Computer is $25, gas to get there is $10, another $1 or so for a socket, and at least 2-3 hours of my time, if not more.

    It'd make no sense to socket my TII computer, and for $10, I'd gladly pay somebody else to inhale the toxic lead soldering fume, save me the time and trouble. (Yes, I know there are non-lead solder out there) Beside, I rather keep somebody selling TD parts in business...


    Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect. Are you saying that a standalone will give people perfect results right out of the box?
    I'm saying TIME is needed a LOT more if you're doing your own calibration.

    I have to keep adjusting the cal to meet my car needs. And to adjust the cal for a SMEC car is to burn the chip and change the chip, which means you have spend the time to adjust whatever you want, erase the chip, burn the chip, disconnect two the batter connect, take out the nut holding the battery, take out the battery, unscrew the 2 bolts holding the SMEC, unscrew the one bolt hold the connector to SMEC, unplug another connector, remove the SMEC, unscrew 6 trox screws, carefully take out the chip, insert new chip and do everything in reverse. I've done it so many times that I can now do it in complete darkness!!!

    THEN, I have to do what Speedeuphoria says and hope whatever I adjust is working like I intend to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedeuphoria View Post
    If I had an 8valve I would deff consider making my own cals, the main drawback to me is not having realtime adjustments, man that would be a PITA. I could see starting up the car for the 1st time and while it warms up, have to keep a log of where it needs slight adjustments as it warms up, I dont think I could do it. I would prob burn through many versions and have several notebooks full of adjustments. Man that would be a lot of wasted time IMO. Put it this way go to the dyno and see how much tuning you can do in the time allowed.
    I imagine standalone would allow you with real time adjustment and would certainly save a LOT of time, just changing the calibration is 10-15 minute each time, adjusting the calibration is another 10-15 minute, then the test drive time... many and many of them.


    And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info... As opposed to a standalone which is run by a hand full of people on the board, while the custom cals are used by many who are the people that usually weigh in on every tuning thread?


    Yes, so far the TM people and Moparchem has been very helpful.
    Though, I'm still having rich idle and my CE on knock lights issues. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26048

    Would you be kindly to point me to the correct direction or let the right people who can point me to the correct direction to solve both?
    I would really really appreciates it if you can.

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..


  19. #19
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Wow, this is a lot of board code that could get ugly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Don't take my post as offensive, it's not meant to be. I won't.


    Wait the minute, what does socketing a board have anything to do with making one's own calibration? You mentioned purchasing a socketed board so you wouldn't mess one up. I think someone probably shouldn't be doing any of this if they can't figure out how to work a soldering iron. That could just be me I guess.

    In my case,
    I sold sell my TII calibation for $60-$75 + shipping.
    Bought a socketed SMEC for like $40-45 shipped, stupid cheap.
    Junkyard Computer is $25, gas to get there is $10, another $1 or so for a socket, and at least 2-3 hours of my time, if not more.

    It'd make no sense to socket my TII computer, and for $10, I'd gladly pay somebody else to inhale the toxic lead soldering fume, save me the time and trouble. (Yes, I know there are non-lead solder out there) Beside, I rather keep somebody selling TD parts in business... If you can sell your SMEC for that and buy a socketed one for cheaper, I think it would be silly not to do what you did.




    I'm saying TIME is needed a LOT more if you're doing your own calibration.

    I have to keep adjusting the cal to meet my car needs. And to adjust the cal for a SMEC car is to burn the chip and change the chip, which means you have spend the time to adjust whatever you want, erase the chip, burn the chip, disconnect two the batter connect, take out the nut holding the battery, take out the battery, unscrew the 2 bolts holding the SMEC, unscrew the one bolt hold the connector to SMEC, unplug another connector, remove the SMEC, unscrew 6 trox screws, carefully take out the chip, insert new chip and do everything in reverse. I've done it so many times that I can now do it in complete darkness!!! That is a good point. I have been working with my LM so much that I forgot how much I hate to erase the chip from my SBEC with UV light and pull the battery etc. You can get a ribbon cable so you don't have to do that, but you are right that it is a real pain if you just have a socketed SMEC or SBEC.

    THEN, I have to do what Speedeuphoria says and hope whatever I adjust is working like I intend to.



    I imagine standalone would allow you with real time adjustment and would certainly save a LOT of time, just changing the calibration is 10-15 minute each time, adjusting the calibration is another 10-15 minute, then the test drive time... many and many of them. I hope that we aren't too far away from flashable LMs, SMECs, and (someday) SBECs in car. I know you can readily do it with the SMEC, and there are people who have done it with the LM. That would be nice indeed.





    Yes, so far the TM people and Moparchem has been very helpful.
    Though, I'm still having rich idle and my CE on knock lights issues. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26048

    Would you be kindly to point me to the correct direction or let the right people who can point me to the correct direction to solve both?
    I would really really appreciates it if you can.
    You are running a 2.5 with 89' TII electronics and base cal I believe? I would see if Bucar, or Rob would know what the deal is with that. I know that Bucar has posted a 87 TII cal for a 2.5. You might want to have a look at that. I would also recommend comparing the timing tables from a stock 90 2.5 cal with those of yours to see if that CEL at 10PSI was it? is actually some knock from too much spark or if it is to sensitive a sensor, loose bracket etc.

  20. #20
    turbo addict
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    Re: The best computer setup for my engine setup..

    Are doing your own cals really that easy? What all do you need?

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