Help! I've the slowest turbo Lebaron ('92 T1 manual) known to man!

[thrashercharged]

>I've seen it where people have replaced the 11 inch rear vented rotors with solid 10 inch units.

Why would anyone want to do that? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

>Could you snap a picture of the front and rear brakes for us?

Sure, no problem. I forgot to snap a pic of the options tag though, I'll get one later. It's really rusty for some reason and hard to read though.

Here's the fronts, note the rotor and calipers are new (calipers were frozen - they wouldn't press in to accommodate the thicker new rotors)




And here's one taken farther back for scale - you can see these are the smaller 10.25".



Here's the rears, with one taken farther back too. The rotors and calipers were not changed on the rear - they seem to be working.





You can see the missing muffler in the last photo.

Just curious, why exactly do you want photos of the brakes? Is there something in particular you're looking for?

[BIGBRUDDA]

WELCOME TO THE CLAN This maybe your chance to defect!!!
The best shifter bushings are homemade. 5/16 stainless washers, teflon, or delrin faucet washers from Home Depot.Sandwich the teflon with the stainless. Standard 1/4 in, "E clip".

Try www.Rockautoparts.com, or Raybestos website for the brakes. Lots of different brake combos to choose from on these cars.

[88_pacifica]

.,.. being a GM engineer for 18 years you buy what you design and work on what you know, and having access to all the factory service manuals and tools keeps one from straying too far....

My only real disappointment with all my blown GM cars is that they’re all automatics, and I really missed driving a stick, so this Lebaron should be fun, and the fuel economy of the 4 cylinder is a plus these days. But, it’s got to be the slowest turbo J car ever known to man!

So the little Mitsubishi turbo is free and spinning now, but after studying the hose diagram under the hood and hooking that plumbing nightmare up with all the T's and check valves, I’m only getting about 5 psi boost and it’s still a dog. I have to say (no flames please), that the plumbing on my turbo Buicks is much simpler! I've seen conflicting posts, but I've read somewhere that this '92 SBEC-II ECM (which I understand may be really rare - thus probably hard to find any programming for unfortunately) does limit boost to 5 psi.

I figured if it didn't ping at 15 psi and 87 octane, the timing must be way retarded, so I’ve advanced the ignition timing a bit and it’s better, but the lower end is still soggy and in no way will it even chirp the tires. The throttle response is much better than before - it doesn't lay down after each shift now, but I still don't think it's where it should be even at 5 psi. Now it’s idling at between 1200 and 1400 so I’m sure the timing is advanced too high, although I don’t understand why the idle air control circuit can’t compensate and bring the idle down. I would think I have a leak and it’s getting excessive air, but the vacuum is good (15 psi or more) and I don’t hear a leak.

One of the things I don’t know is how to actually check the timing. I’ve a friend at work here that’s a Mopar guy currently heavy into the Mitsubishi 3.0L on the TD forums. He’s pointed out that the timing indicator is on the flywheel. I’ve found a small window (had a piece of foam plugged in the hole) in the bellhousing and see the flywheel teeth through it, but I see no markings or a scale. Looking at the flywheel through the timing light, I think I see a timing mark on the flywheel but it’s jumping around – I assume because it’s under ECM control. I was told to unplug the coolant temp sensor to make the ECM go to base timing, but I can’t find the sensor for the ECM (found the one to the dash). So where’s the scale to line the flywheel timing mark up against? It should be at 12 deg BTDC, but I don't know where to line up the marks to read it.

I’ve got lots more questions, but this post is way too long already. I’ll ask more later! Thanks for any help y’all can give on these 2 immediate issues.

WOO-HOO another GM man. These guys are a tough lot here... They drink at MaMopar's nipple and absolutely detest anything but ChryCo's. I see you are in Kokomo. I am in Westfield so a trip up there might be in order. However, be warned, while I do know quite a bit about TD's, everybody that even comes close to me has their TD die rather quickly. I am the TD virus...

Now, with that being said and out of the way, I would recommend talking to a guy of the forums here named "Fleck." He's a die hard Mopar man, so you have to watch your tongue, but, he definitely knows his way around a TD. I would start there and see if he could swing by one day. Again, I'm not opposed to coming out and helping too, but the real secret is do you want me too?

Now after reading the post and hearing your credentials, you can surely follow along fairly easily. If the turbo "broke free" it likely has rust issues and it will be very difficult to release any real potential with it "binding" at all. Secondly, unlike a TB(Turbo Buick) the Map sensor totally rules this car and everything runs off of set tables. On a GM we know that the MAF is king. These cars are easily reworked and the process to do any engine management changes is all very simple compared to a GM, IMO. A pinhole vacuum leak on these cars can be a nightmare as it it will almost ruin any driveability/reliability. Also, unlike a GM you have to quadruple check all your grounds 150,000 times. For some reason(cost probably), Chryco liked to use TONS of splices for their circuits. I will say one thing, There are very few wires to trace in a TD, BUT, it you have a short or ground, you better take the week off work to chase them down. A short in the turn signal might make your AC "blow up." (j/k)

There are a ton of things you learn as you go, but obviously you know this can be a "reasonably quick" car, but I would definitely not put it in the same playing field as even a stock GN. Your car is very very rare and given that it is all original(still had the original foam in bellhousing). I would make any changes easily reversible. Now, with that being said, I would say you can make it a mid 14's car with some work. It is probably stockish around the low to mid 15's. Anyway... feel freee to PM me for more info and a contact number and I'll do my best to at least get it close to "stock." Any performance mods typically add a new "twist of events," but before you do anything, we have to get it dialed in right...

[crazymadbastard]

Welcome to the board!
I have a modded 92 gtc convertible 5spd. I believe the engine you have is the high torque 2.5. With the ABS option, the brakes were the 10 inch- anyway this is th case with mine. I replaced the rotors and brakes with some bendix platinums(maybe) and the brake pads came with the clips and shims to adjust clearance between the brackets and pads.

Definetly look into the poly shifter bushings. Good luck on your project, you picked a good car to save and enjoy.

[TopDollar69]

The fact that the car has ABS might be the clue as to why it has the smaller disk brakes. My friend Paul has a 92 GTC turbo A568 convertible without ABS, and I'm not 100% sure but I think it has the larger 11 inch rotors.

[Dusty_Duster]

Yes, welcome! And once you get it running good, you need to put an intercooler in there!

[thrashercharged]

Yep - I've been a faithful GM man but coming to the dark side (being pushed and dragged by $4.20 gas!) Thanks for the heads-up concerning the electrical and the sensitivity of this speed density system to vacuum leaks 88_pacifica. Could this be why my windshield wipers will swipe a few times almost every time I start the car? At first I thought this was a feature - just to clean your windshield of rain, dew, or whatever, but sometimes it doesn't do it, and sometimes it'll swipe several times before stopping so I figured it wasn't a feature after all.

The ABS light sometimes will come on, sometimes not, but the airbag light is always on so it must be in-op. Same thing with the Driver Information Center (DIC) (don't know what Mopar calls it, at GM we call it a DIC, pronounced the way it's spelled - it's the computer below the radio that gives fuel economy, miles driven, miles left, temperature, etc.) Mine comes on when it wants to but mostly stays off, but always tells me the temp is -30 degs and need calibrating. Any idea how to calibrate it?

So 88_pacifica - why exactly do you have a GN with the words Turbo Mopar in your sig? That's funny (well - at least I think so, don't know how anyone else here feels about that!) So do you have a GN or turbo Mopar, or better yet both? We'll have to get together sometime.

My goal with this car is to take care of the rust and get it painted (same color) stock wheels, leave it stock interior and exterior, and use it as a DD except for winter - I don't intend on anymore salt or snow/ice - I've enough winter beaters to drive. I'll get it running right first and probably leave it alone for awhile (too many other projects) and start modding it slowly as I've a lot to learn and more research to do. I tend to like to leave things stock for the most part for durability and upgrade to the best the factory had to offer (11" brakes, Shelby suspension parts, etc.) I'm thinking a Garrett turbo of some sort and a front mount someday. Nothing too radical, I want to maintain good driveability, reliability and fuel economy!

The ECMS are old enough that they must use EPROMs don't they? Have people mostly figured out the cal tables and have them floating around on the internet, or are they still a mystery? I've been told my ECM is especially rare so there may be nothing figured out for mine?

I do have the ABS option, so maybe that's why I have 10.25 rotors? The 2.5L I have is the high torque (and low HP) one.

I ordered some poly shifter bushings, just waiting for them to come in. I haven't driven her since I set the cam/ignition timing because of that - too lazy to put the air box back in and connect all the hoses and BOV just to have to take it off again to do the shifter bushing!

[BIGBRUDDA]

If you examine your under motor/timing belt pics closely.You'll see the big rusty 18 mm nut that holds the 2 piece motor mount together. Be sure to support the engine when removing that mount, to get belt access.
I see you already have the fancy-shmancy ,blue Fel-Pro $40 oilpan gasket.Apparently the previous owner had the pan off already

These cars run well all things considered.Just be thorough and patient when repairing or modifying them.
Take Nate,(88pacifica) with agrain of salt. He sees the world thru "Buirck goggles".

[R/T]

If you'r in Kokomo, our own Fleckster lives there too - He's an engineer for Chrysler, he knows EVERYTHING!!!

And has a bunch of these turbo cars....

[88_pacifica]

Yep - I've been a faithful GM man but coming to the dark side (being pushed and dragged by $4.20 gas!) Thanks for the heads-up concerning the electrical and the sensitivity of this speed density system to vacuum leaks 88_pacifica. Could this be why my windshield wipers will swipe a few times almost every time I start the car? At first I thought this was a feature - just to clean your windshield of rain, dew, or whatever, but sometimes it doesn't do it, and sometimes it'll swipe several times before stopping so I figured it wasn't a feature after all.

The ABS light sometimes will come on, sometimes not, but the airbag light is always on so it must be in-op. Same thing with the Driver Information Center (DIC) (don't know what Mopar calls it, at GM we call it a DIC, pronounced the way it's spelled - it's the computer below the radio that gives fuel economy, miles driven, miles left, temperature, etc.) Mine comes on when it wants to but mostly stays off, but always tells me the temp is -30 degs and need calibrating. Any idea how to calibrate it?

That's the optional Dodge-Dash-Demon that hides in electrical connections. He's a real biotch to flush out of hiding, but usually when he does it's when you are not even thinking about him or you really DON'T need that to happen at that point in time.

So 88_pacifica - why exactly do you have a GN with the words Turbo Mopar in your sig? That's funny (well - at least I think so, don't know how anyone else here feels about that!) So do you have a GN or turbo Mopar, or better yet both? We'll have to get together sometime.

I have an '87 GN that I drive on occasion. I also have an '88 Pacifica too, but I am not going to be utilizing it anytime soon unfortunately(bad motor- windowed block). It has been a financial drain on me at this point, but some of the issues are not necessarily to be wholly attributed to Ma Mopar...

My goal with this car is to take care of the rust and get it painted (same color) stock wheels, leave it stock interior and exterior, and use it as a DD except for winter - I don't intend on anymore salt or snow/ice - I've enough winter beaters to drive. I'll get it running right first and probably leave it alone for awhile (too many other projects) and start modding it slowly as I've a lot to learn and more research to do. I tend to like to leave things stock for the most part for durability and upgrade to the best the factory had to offer (11" brakes, Shelby suspension parts, etc.) I'm thinking a Garrett turbo of some sort and a front mount someday. Nothing too radical, I want to maintain good driveability, reliability and fuel economy!

That's why I originally migrated over from GM products and went to TD's. I was just not able to effectively "collect" on my investment and the ROI was just pitiful. I have seen it many times. People are either one extreme or the other. Some dump thousands to get a good TD and make it the best they can(me) and others buy a $500 beater and it lasts for literally thousands and thousands of miles. It is truly hit or miss with these cars. I missed....

The ECMS are old enough that they must use EPROMs don't they? Have people mostly figured out the cal tables and have them floating around on the internet, or are they still a mystery? I've been told my ECM is especially rare so there may be nothing figured out for mine?

They do have EPROMS and most of these cals are socketed and reprogrammed. There is not an aftermarket "chip" per-se, but the tables can be manipulated fairly easily. The vendors and a few select other members are very knowledgeable in this area and offer many options.

These cars run well all things considered.Just be thorough and patient when repairing or modifying them.
Take Nate,(88pacifica) with agrain of salt. He sees the world thru "Buirck goggles".

Very true, but I have had a myriad of issues with TD's which is why I'm a bit jaded...

[thrashercharged]

>I would recommend talking to a guy of the forums here named "Fleck."
>If you'r in Kokomo, our own Fleckster lives there too - He's an engineer for >Chrysler, he knows EVERYTHING!!! And has a bunch of these turbo cars....

How do I contact Fleck? Sounds like he's a great resource for these cars. I just figured out the guy (I forget his login name here) with the long lost Lebaron Indy Pace Car lives 5 miles from me, and I plan on meeting with him soon.

There's a Mopar event at the Belvadiere Assembly Plant this weekend isn't there? I've some business to take care of in Chicago/Rockford, so I might be there. Is there a place you guys are meeting up there?

>If you examine your under motor/timing belt pics closely.You'll see the big >rusty 18 mm nut that holds the 2 piece motor mount together. Be sure to >support the engine when removing that mount, to get belt access.
>I see you already have the fancy-shmancy ,blue Fel-Pro $40 oilpan >gasket.Apparently the previous owner had the pan off already

Aah - I must have missed that bolt. The engine in the car is a junkyard engine, I think from a T1 Daytona. The oil pan was removed to check the bearings before the engine was installed.

>That's the optional Dodge-Dash-Demon that hides in electrical connections. >He's a real biotch to flush out of hiding

So I take it the advice is to live with my weird wiper swipes every so often when I start the car, and be happy that they'll eventually stop and it's not worse?

>I have an '87 GN that I drive on occasion. I also have an '88 Pacifica too

Ok, this will show my ignorance with Mopar, but I wasn't aware of a Pacifica in 1988. I thought the only minivans were the Caravan and Voyager in those days? I've always thought the turbo minivans were cool, the ultimate sleepers. I've never seen a 80's Pacifica advertised on eBay, ever. Was that Chrysler's version, where Dodge had the Caravan and Plymouth had the Voyager?

>They do have EPROMS and most of these cals are socketed and >reprogrammed. There is not an aftermarket "chip" per-se, but the tables can >be manipulated fairly easily. The vendors and a few select other members >are very knowledgeable in this area and offer many options.

Is there a site on the web where people have dumped the EPROMS and have the binarys available? I guess I'm asking if there's an active group of people exchanging info and figuring out everything about the calibrations for these cars like there is for the turbo Buicks. I know I won't be able to keep my hands off the calibrations for too much longer!

[chilort]

Ha ... in '88 the Pacifica was not a "mini van" like it "is" today. It was a version of the Daytona. It basically had some different options a body kit. They looked good though.

[Turbodave]

There's a Mopar event at the Belvadiere Assembly Plant this weekend isn't there? I've some business to take care of in Chicago/Rockford, so I might be there. Is there a place you guys are meeting up there?

Yep there is a Mopar show this weekend and a bunch of us will be there. It's not at the Chrysler plant any longer, but it's not far from there at the Boone county Fairgrounds in Belvidere. Hwy76 just north of Buuisness 20 (State St). I'll be at the show on Saturday and Sunday, with the red 89 Shadow in my sig pic. Saturday evening we'll be hanging out at the Motel 6 in Rockford, look for the goofballs sitting in the parking lot drinking. If you have any other questions there is info about the show on www.chicagolandmopar.com, or you can send me a PM. It would be great to meet you, even if you pull up in a GM product

[88_pacifica]

How do I contact Fleck? Sounds like he's a great resource for these cars. I just figured out the guy (I forget his login name here) with the long lost Lebaron Indy Pace Car lives 5 miles from me, and I plan on meeting with him soon.

Send him a private message and reference this thread. He's an admin/staff on here...

Fleck

The engine in the car is a junkyard engine, I think from a T1 Daytona. The oil pan was removed to check the bearings before the engine was installed.

Oh man that sucks. The internals may be different depending on the specifics of the year it's from...

So I take it the advice is to live with my weird wiper swipes every so often when I start the car, and be happy that they'll eventually stop and it's not worse?

Electrical demons are always the last thing to chase down if they are not contributing to the motor issues and it's ancillary...

Is there a site on the web where people have dumped the EPROMS and have the binarys available? I guess I'm asking if there's an active group of people exchanging info and figuring out everything about the calibrations for these cars like there is for the turbo Buicks. I know I won't be able to keep my hands off the calibrations for too much longer!

Our knowledge base here has some good tables and R&D, You can also talk to Rob Lloyd(ShelGame) as he is always trying to massage the electronics and has contributed heavily to these tables and the database.

Knowledge Center

[TopDollar69]

Judging by the engine Pics I would say that is definitly a 89-92 2.5L TI. All of the internals were the same throughout the 2.5L TI engine run. One thing you can do to confirm the year of the engine is to check the date cast into the rear of the block near the oil pan on the drivers side. One other thing, the EPROMs in these computers are not socketed like GM computers. The chip is soldered into the board and has a thick layer of potting material over it. As far as I know, no one has pulled a 92 2.5L TI chip and downloaded the binary file from it yet. Check out moparchem.net and the yahoo group D Cal for more info on the computers.

[TopDollar69]

The electrical problems your having could be from moisture entering your BCM. It is located in the passenger side kick panel. If you pull it out, open the plastic case and look for signs of water dripping on the PC board.

[thrashercharged]

Well, thanks to all the help from you guys and those of you I met in person at the Belvidiere Mopar show, I no longer have the slowest turbo Lebaron around! She's running quite nicely now that the cam and ignition timing are set correctly, and she idles just fine now thanks to the guys at the show! I haven't received the shifter bushings yet so the shifts are still a bit sloppy, but she drives quite nicely. She's not a tire-shredding machine by any means, and I haven't driven her all out doing power shifts at redline yet, but I've been pushing her a bit and she's peppy, has good throttle response, handles well and feels really nimble - I haven't enjoyed driving a car like this for a long time. The little Mitsu turbo spools instantly and I've never had a BOV before (turbo Buicks don't have one) - they sound cool.

Now for the bad news. I got waxed - I mean toasted - slammed by an older 4-door Nissan Maxima. Yes, I hang my head in shame. And to top it off, it was right by the Chrysler Transmission Plant too. I typically don't mind getting passed - cars pass me all the time and I don't care when I'm driving my beater, my wife's minivan, etc. The older I get, the more I drive like my dad, especially with fuel prices these days. But, I hate to admit, this kid in the Maxima got to me. Especially when his passenger waved as he went by. Let me tell you, this would never happen in - well, let's just say I'm not used to it (and hope I never do!)

I was tooling around in the country on the county roads, actually coming back from a salvage yard picking up more parts for the Lebaron and having fun and driving a bit aggressively. Not really hard, just spirited driving - going about 75% throttle and shifting at about 4500 or so. For some of you this might be considered your usual I suppose.

I turned right at a stop sign and noticed this kid in a 4 door white and flat black 2-toned import (with the 2-tone running at a racy looking diagonal) with lightweight rims coming to the intersection. I had the right of way so I turned in front of him and continued my "spirited" driving. I notice he's gaining quickly on me in the mirror, and as I slow down for a Durango in front of me, he passes us. Sounded like he was WOT and shifting at redline. I didn't hear a turbo, I believe he was naturally aspirated. Noticed it was a Maxima, I don't know what year but an older one, probably about the same age as the Lebarron. I know he was faster - I don't think the Lebaron had much more to give even if I were pushing her harder, I think the power curve starts leveling off.

He continued speeding along - I didn't really chase, just continued driving the way I was. He passed a few more cars, I didn't, but managed to keep him in my sight, and eventually caught him at a red light after a few miles on the other side of town. I know he was purposely trying to put distance between us, and probably wondering why I was following him but it was pure coincidence that I was going his way as I live on that side (west) of town. I did catch him at the light where I turned and continued west while he continued south.

Anyway, just as I was thinking I was pretty satisfied with the power level for a daily driver, now I need more power 'cause this ain't happening again! I'll keep with the original plan of fine-tuning the stock combo that I have and continue to work on the rest of the car, but I'm going to have to start investigating the EPROM and calibrations and start tinkering with them. Thanks for the info about some possible contacts for people interested in this programming stuff - I didn't realize the knowledge bases on this site had such info!

Again, thanks for everyone's help and it was a pleasure meeting those of you at Belvidere!

[BIGBRUDDA]

Very true, but I have had a myriad of issues with TD's which is why I'm a bit jaded... [/QUOTE]

Yeah! Next time you're around ......please maintain a 10 ft "safety margin" around my car please. Nate

[88_pacifica]

Now for the bad news. I got waxed - I mean toasted - slammed by an older 4-door Nissan Maxima. Yes, I hang my head in shame. And to top it off, it was right by the Chrysler Transmission Plant too. I typically don't mind getting passed - cars pass me all the time and I don't care when I'm driving my beater, my wife's minivan, etc. The older I get, the more I drive like my dad, especially with fuel prices these days. But, I hate to admit, this kid in the Maxima got to me. Especially when his passenger waved as he went by. Let me tell you, this would never happen in - well, let's just say I'm not used to it (and hope I never do!)

Yep, that is frustrating and those are the times you want the "Corvette Killer..."

I know he was faster - I don't think the Lebaron had much more to give even if I were pushing her harder, I think the power curve starts leveling off.

I'm sure he had a V6 and while these turbo's have a lot to give and can simulate a 6 banger, the Lebaron is no featherweight to be sure. I would bet that Maxima weighs in almost as much as your Lebaron. Once you get that a little more "performance, you should walk him fairly easily...

Yeah! Next time you're around ......please maintain a 10 ft "safety margin" around my car please. Nate

Actually, I hear that quite a bit. I wish I knew what causes that leperacy...

[fleckster]

Sorry for may late response to this thread but I have been out of town on vacation for a while. (Down weeks at the Plant) I'd be happy to help out with anything I can and get your LeBaron running right. (vacuum line set up, installing the shifter bushings, etc.)

I sounds like (judging by your user name) that you picked up the red '92 LeBaron GTC Coupe that was setting over at Thrasher. I heard about that car setting over at their shop for quite a while. I was told that it was an original '92 Turbo I/5 speed car and that the original engine was toast and it was brought their to have a replacement motor from a junkyard put it. They specialize in the 3800 Supercharged engines and didn't really know or want to work on it so it sat and they were wanting to get rid of it. I never got around to checking up on it and I sure didn't/don't need any more projects of my own!

I hope to have a casual Turbo Mopar gathering at my place in a few weeks to part out a couple GLH Turbo Omnis, maybe install the new transmission in my LeBaron, and anything else we or someone else needs done. I'd be happy to have you and anyone else over. I live just about 2 miles east of Delphi off of Boulevard (100S) so I'm not far away. Let me know how I can help you out and congrats on the purchase and welcome to the Forum and the Community!!!