24v duster - input? :D

[Shadow24]

Timing. Serpentine is manual tensioners on both the Alt & A/C belt and PS belt.

[c2xejk]

More an more I am thinking solid timing tensioner is a better way to go...

[Shadow24]

I'm betting the Timing belt doesn't really stretch that much, so possibly... I'll have to disassemble my dead tensioner and see if I can cobble the car back together temporarily. Can you provide a little more detail on your conversion? Such as bolt size, thread, length, etc?

[c2xejk]

I think I used m10 bolts. I don't remember the length probably in the 30-40mm range. There is an M6 bolt to keep the nut from spinning.

I think modern timing belts have very little stretch in them.

[Shadow24]

Date: 17th November 2014
Username: Shadow24
Full Name: Stuart Rowe
City, State, Zip: Tulsa OK, 74133
Contact: shadowplane676@gmail.com 860-729-2633 (text preferred)
Selling or Wanted Price: $3000 OBO

Description: Well, life likes to make a mess of the best plans one has for project cars. Due to changes, I believe it is time to let my almost 10-year long project go. Sadly I do not have the time nor funds to put any more into Lucy 2.0. Add in the fact that my wife doesn't trust the vehicle as far as she could throw it, and that I no longer have a place to store or work on Lucy, it is time to move on. With that said, I am putting this out to see if anyone would be interested in this vehicle/project. It is a unique, first of its kind build featuring a 6G72 SOHC 24v motor with many upgrades and improvements. There are still things that need to be done to finish the vehicle, but it is driveable and is currently tagged and has a clean Oklahoma title.

I have listed below what has been done to the vehicle and what will also come with the vehicle as spare parts. I am asking $3000 for the whole lot. I believe this is a fair asking price considering this setup ran a 14.309@94mph N/A and the chassis is basically ready for a turbo or supercharger, and the spare parts that would come with it. This car also was able to pass Connecticut emissions as well, so it should be OK for most any state. It is not in perfect condition as it was a function over form approach, but the body started as a sound basically rust-free shell from VA and was only put on the road recently in Oklahoma. Those of you that know my progress thread have some idea already of what has been put into this vehicle. I probably have forgotten a few items in the list below as well.




1994 Dodge Shadow ES 2-door with sunroof

Converted from Auto to Manual (Prothane shifter bushings at the shifter, brass transmission shifter bushings)
Rebuilt A543 with OBX LSD
Spare A543 Trans (not touched, no LSD)
TU Purple plate and sprung 6-puck clutch
Fidanza Aluminum flywheel

Motor swapped from 12v 3.0 to a 2001 3.0 24v 9:1CR motor out of the 3rd Gen Eclipse and Dodge Stratus with a Rebuilt bottom end and 270cc injectors
Spare set of heads/cams (disassembled)
Full set of brand new valves for spare heads
Set of upgrade springs for valves
set of 390cc drop in injectors
6G73 lower intake manifold (for using Bosch/Mustang style injectors)
3/8" Stainless steel fuel feed line
5/16" stainless steel fuel return line
Summit competition fuel filter
Walbro 255lph pump
Custom modified fuel rails to remove flow restrictions
3000GT stock boost referenced FPR
Distributor delete

Megasquirt-II Extra ECU with the following addons
Relay board
KnocksenseMS module
LC1 Wideband o2 sensor
Flatshift/Launch control set up off of clutch switch
Tach out to drive tach
outputs for Full-throttle A/C cutout
Fan control

Full dash replacement
Glowshift Boost/Vacuum
Glowshift Water Temp
Glowshift Oil Temp
Glowshift Oil Pressure
Glowshift Volts
Glowshift Fuel Level
Summit Speedometer (160mph)
Autometer narrowband AFR gauge (driven off of LC1)
knock indicating LED (sensor is a bit TOO sensitive at the moment, needs attenuated with teflon tape)
Low Oil pressure light (Jegs sensor needs replaced)

spare set of steel rims with 24.5x8.5 MT slicks
Set of Sportline rims (17x7 IIRC) with no tires
1993 FSM set
Copper-nickel Alloy brake lines all around
larger upgraded Master Cylinder for 4-wheel disk brakes
Rear disk conversion parts (not installed)
Adapted A/C - Needs pressure relief valve replaced (have part) evacuated and recharged. May want to switch the high pressure wiring to the combo switch on the compressor to keep the popoff valve from blowing again.
Custom exhaust consisting of OBX headers and FWDPerformance 2.5" cat-back exhaust.
Fuel Tank, filler tube, K-frame, sway bar and front A-arms all POR15'd

[Ondonti]

I don't understand the evolution of the project to death. Seems like too much effort into things that apparently now you don't care about. I will keep to avoiding investing into my cars when I know they are not investments or something that will make my wife happy. I have never tried to make anything nice for this same reason. If I get cut off, I don't want to feel like I am leaving a piece of me behind.
I have been a bit irked to have driven my wife's 3.0 a lot more than I wanted this last year due to silly wiring problems etc. That car has a due date for a transmission and gunked up piston rings. That said, I already collected spare transmissions for it and unmodified its very easy to keep going as long as the electrics survive. Reliability...hmm, as long as I have an extra car.

[Shadow24]

Some good news! - I finally had the time to put the timing system back together to see if I had any valve damage. I was lucky and she fired right up and ran OK. So 2 crank teeth plus a little slop in the woodruff key is apparently not enough to bend valves .

I'll keep tinkering with Lucy as time & funds permit, but the "for Sale" option is still good.

[c2xejk]

Add in the fact that my wife doesn't trust the vehicle as far as she could throw it,

So what issues have you been having? (beyond the timing one. ) Did you stay with the stock tensioner or did you convert it to solid?

[Shadow24]

She doesn't trust it due all the issues I've had over the span of the project (including, but not limited to, bending all the valves due to jumped timing belt, multiple broken axles from drag racing, shearing the index pin on the crank 3x, multiple instances of bad wiring causing no-start/run issues, and so on). Luckily she has been very tolerant with Lucy so far and hasn't made me turn her in for scrap metal...

I ended up staying with the stock tensioner for when I reassembled the timing system, the "slop" I saw earlier was gone. Add on that the tensioner itself didn't have play, I rolled the dice and came up good this time. If I have time/funds, i DO need to replace the timing belt and ancillary components. The belt is over 5 years old and definitely coming up on the mileage mark as well. it doesn't LOOK too bad, but I'd rather not have it let go on me.

I do have to say though, that the car seems to be running much better than I hoped. I need to re-verify ignition timing (just to be certain), as I have a fairly uneven idle that has a lot more vibration than I remember. I am idling in the mid to upper 40's (kpa) and in the 13 to mid 14's for AFR when I was in the 30's to 20's (kpa) and 13's AFR before. This might have to do with the 65mm throttle compared to the 60mm I replaced, but I didn't think it would make that much of a difference. Additionally, I have switched to EAE and Adaptive idle control (man the new code is MUCH better than what I had on my MS from 3+ years ago!) so some of the idle issues are probably due to not fully having the adaptive idle tuned right. I only started using it this week...

Above idle though, the motor smooths out a lot. I think the walbro is overrunning the 3000GT-TT FPR (documented issues of this on 3si.org if I remember correctly), so I have been pulling a lot of fuel out of the table. Pulling fuel got me past my phantom rev limiter in the upper RPMs and she pulls more like I remember. Although the on-throttle pull to the right seems to have returned. I may have to check my Diff and see if the case bolts are loose again...

[Ondonti]

I would note here that I had fun using the new idle control options...and not fun with the fact that my TPS accell enrichment no longer functions, just max pulsewidth or zero, no matter what the table reference is. Had to go MAP. That and when I drove the car last the idle no longer adapted to where it should. I really don't know if our OEM idle motors like constant on but mine don't work when they are in "as needed" mode. I had like idle 5 motors swapping in and out when troubleshooting originally.

I wish the idle control had more aggressive parameters to force idle.

[Shadow24]

Any reason you didn't go with EAE? Once I spent a little time on EAE, I was having better luck with Accel enrich than I did with TPS/MAP-dot. I am just finding a few areas I need to work on with EAE.

Adaptive Idle for me is way better. It easily handles adding loads like headlights, HVAC fan, rear defrost etc. with ease. has increased driveability significantly. How aggressive do you need it to be?

[c2xejk]

Agreed on the EAE! AF is much more consistent.

On the Adaptive Idle, is this something new or the standard closed-loop idle? I have been using the closed-loop (PID) idle control but struggling with an idle that wants to wander. In the past it would start oscillating and the swings would get larger and larger... The result would be a stall. Seems like dialing in some derivative (D) helped settle this down, but it still isn't as good as I would like...

The 3.5 seems to like a LOT of timing. I don't have the table in front of me, but I think I have 30-45 EVERYWHERE in the table...

[Ondonti]

Just no time to research when I had synch issues that have just gotten worse. I was forced to redo everything and wanted to try idle control. The accel enrichment quick fix was simply to allow me to drive the pile of junk.

I wanted dashpot adder to have a larger range. That is the steps added when you lift throttle. 20 steps is max and when we have 0-255 stepper its not as useful as when a motor uses only 100 or so steps.
I also wanted a huge rpmdashpot limit. I have that maxed out because if my idle is oscillating too much it would never enter closed loop.

This is another of the many settings that needs to have speed sensor incorporated...something megasquirters seem to completely ignore. Lots of settings would be more fool proof if megasquirt understood how fast you were going.

[Shadow24]

Well, my speedo is toast. The LCD Odometer died when I had the overvolt issue from the alternator's voltage regulator going flaky on me. I decided to pull apart the gauge to see if I could fix it, but I messed up the whole thing now. I probably shorted something or put something back incorrectly, but was still unable to fix the LCD display. Luckily I had one of my last ebay items sell yesterday, and that should give me just enough "mad money" to buy a replacement. I'm probably going to get a Glowshift speedo to match the rest of my gauges and in retrospect, don't really see a need at the moment for a speedo that goes over 140mph. If I do break that mark, well, maybe a larger speedo will be needed, or bail money....

[Shadow24]

went to a local junkyard today in search of a few parts to fix my erratic idle control issue. Lucked out and found a complete 6G74 manifold and TB which I promptly absconded with. This should fix the clearance issue between the throttle body and rear valve cover that I currently have (which I believe is causing some form of vacuum leak). I have to clean it up a bit, but a total score I also nabbed a right lower control arm to see if that fixes some of my clunking and pulling to the right on acceleration.

I'm still on the lookout for some 3.8L non-mivec cams to complete my current parts scrounging list. (the 3.8L cams are symmetrical and a better profile than the normal 3.0/3.5 cams).

I also got my replacement speedometer that i have to install along with better grounding for my dash gauges to improve accuracy. Still on the "new parts list" is springs for the front and rear, going to go coilover again on the front and with some GM-type rear springs to improve handling.

[Shadow24]

Well, swapped the intake this evening, we will see if this takes care of the idle/cold start high RPM issue I have.


Here is the interesting thing, the car I pulled the manifold from was poorly installed (see picture below). One of the EGR ports was "sealed" with a plastic cap and grey RTV. and 2 of the 5 bolts holding the manifold on when I pulled it were not proper.



Here you can see the major differences between the GT manifold and the 6G74 manifold.



and lastly, fully installed and working

[Shadow24]

So now that I have some of the running issues sorted out with my car, it is time to get a few things addressed with the suspension/steering. The car as it currently sits definitely has suspension issues. I did put new dampers on about 2 years ago (car sat for the last year and a half). but I'm pretty sure the springs are shot. The car still squats in the back with new rear dampers and the right front is slightly lower than the left front. I also have very bad dive and nose lift when accelerating or braking. Add in that I have what I believe is massive bump-steer on acceleration, means the car is fairly twitchy and quite a handful at anything over 1/2 throttle. (Keep in mind, I do have an OBX LSD in the car that was in good working order when I pulled the drivetrain out of Lucy 1.0 to put into Lucy 2.0. This also included swapping the 5-speed K-frame over).


The torquesteer/funnybusiness in the front is what usually gives me the most grief. When I get on the throttle, you can visibly see the front end rise by at least an inch to 3" (at WOT) or more (caveat: guestimate). This causes the steering wheel to rotate to the left by about 1/16 to 1/8 of a turn. The car then likes to start pulling to one side or the other under heavy acceleration and proceeds to bounce from pulling to one side then the other. Couple that with the random steering wheel movement makes keeping the car in a straight line very hard as when you let off the throttle and the front end comes back down, you are now oversteering to one direction or the other. While I do have an LSD (I will try and check to make sure the LSD hasn't separated on me again causing all sorts of wierdness before), I believe this erratic behavior is triggered by a completely unbalanced suspension setup.


I believe that the first order of business is to deal with the rear springs as I am only an inch or two off the bumpstops at present. This also gives the car a very noticeable rearward rake angle of approximately 1.77 degrees. Couple that with the extensive compression of the springs, I believe I am getting excessive rear squat and front end rise. This (from what little I know about suspension) can cause all sorts of issues with front end alignment, bump steer etc.


wheel arch heights (ground to wheel arch through center axis of wheel)
LF - ~27.5" (Spring compressed to ~8.25")
RF - ~27" (spring compressed to ~8.75")
LR - ~25.25" (spring currently compressed to 6.5")
RR - ~25.25" (spring currently compressed to 6.5")


I have found some 10" tall, 5" round springs I believe will work with no to little modification and can be had in many spring rates from Speedway. I am considering going with a linear rate of 350lb/in. This should get my static height closer to normal and increase my front anti-lift/rear anti-squat. I believe this will help bias the weight distribution back towards the front of the car and may alleviate some of the torquesteer/funnybusiness going on in the front end.


If anyone has input on spring rates for a good balanced setup on a P-body, I am all ears. The same goes for finding what is causing the erratic front steer issues under acceleration. I am also opening a thread in the suspension section to try and get a little more traffic on my issue.

[Shadow24]

So I finally got around to installing the 10.5" tall 300# springs I picked up from Speedway. While 1/2" shorter than stock, I gained 1" in rear ride height (even with the extra weight of my tools etc in the trunk). Ride in the rear is more sporty than the land-yacht float I had before and doesn't feel like I am overworking the dampers (no multiple oscillation on bumps). Unfortunately the steering issue has persisted. Hopefully I can check on the inner and outer tie rods and to check on the diff this weekend.

[Shadow24]

I think I found part of my tuning issues - the bias resistors for the CLT and AIT sensors are out of spec (1.7 and 1.6 k-ohms vs the 2.49k-ohms specced). This is causing the root fuel calculation and compensations based on CLT to be way off. No wonder my temp gauge never matched TS. Time to find some at Radioshack and pull out the soldering gun...

[Shadow24]

Obtained a replacement LEFT control arm (now have a pair) and new ball joints. Right ball joint is toast and the left one has 1/4" play THROUGH the current control arm. Going to see how they do with OEM bushings over the mismatched bushings I have now. I plan to get Johnny's A-arm bushings to replace the OEM/bad replacement bushings hopefully soon.