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Thread: Oil Additives Reduced

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    Oil Additives Reduced

    This is long; deleted some of it, from a British bike list I check in on -

    *********
    OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!

    By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

    About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

    A month or so ago I had a failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

    This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

    Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, Crane. They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

    Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer - Redline. Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products.

    To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

    This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

    Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

    Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.

    Now what do we do?

    From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

    From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

    From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

    From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

    From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

    Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.

    For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

    If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.

    At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple, Castrol, has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to be. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.


    Oil is Killing our cars Part II

    Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

    Now for the latest report:
    #1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.
    #2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
    #3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.
    #4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.
    #5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
    #6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

    For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
    Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

    Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.
    Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
    New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

    Keith Ansell, President
    Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
    www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
    360-882-3596

    **
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

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    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman²'s Avatar
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Yep, most name brand synthetics are ok to use as there man made. Newer engines don't matter as they have rollerized everything.
    Yep, Diesel oil is the way to go but remember, if you have a roller cam, you have nothing much to worry about.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
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  3. #3
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    I use Shell Rotella-T in flat tappet cam engines. Had 2 go flat with "premium" brand oil. (Castrol, Valvoline, etc.) I think turbo's are not very fond of this problem either, but I haven't seen any failures as of yet......

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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboJerry View Post
    I use Shell Rotella-T in flat tappet cam engines. Had 2 go flat with "premium" brand oil. (Castrol, Valvoline, etc.) I think turbo's are not very fond of this problem either, but I haven't seen any failures as of yet......
    Yep, did some reading on Shell Rotella, really good stuff. Thats what I am running right now, but at -2 deg C, the engine doesn't want to turn over, lol!

    It also noticed it took 1500 km's for my rings to fully seat this time, I have had 16 inches of vacuum and about 2 weeks ago, it came down to around 20, phew.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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    turbo addict boost geek's Avatar
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Yep, did some reading on Shell Rotella, really good stuff. Thats what I am running right now, but at -2 deg C, the engine doesn't want to turn over, lol!

    It also noticed it took 1500 km's for my rings to fully seat this time, I have had 16 inches of vacuum and about 2 weeks ago, it came down to around 20, phew.
    Your running 15/40 in your van?
    later Dick Westerhof

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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by boost geek View Post
    Your running 15/40 in your van?
    Yes, why?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    I'm using 0-50W Mobil 1. Is Mobil 1 also no good? Why should I be surprised though with what they are doing to the food we eat. I hope the moderators will not feel that this is a political thread. If API oil is causing flat tappets to fail, why would I want it in a roller engine either?! Lobe pressures on high lift cams are higher than stock and we want the whole engine rotating assembly as well lubed and 'slickery' as possible. Bummer. Just when I thought that going synthetic was the real deal I'm told that dino diesel is the way to go. Maybe we should go back to castor oil like in WW1 and the old Indy days. An historic note: the fumes from the castor oil gave the oldtime Indy drivers some embarrassing distress in the lower tract before the race was over.

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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    I'm glad I use Red Line and only Red Line!

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Now I'm wondering if this is why I started getting marks in camshaft lobes on my roller cam with high-rate valvesprings...
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    A freind'd dad is a retired chemist from the oil industry, we had an oil discussion a couple years ago and he told me to use Rotella T but he didn't go into the whole science of it. Maybe he thought I wouldn't get it So i've been using it a couple years now, I like the new no-glug spouts on the gallon containers. It seams like there would be other high pressure point of contact areas like the flat tappets in other parts of the motor... I definately would not want to risk the flat tappet valvetrain in the Masi motors

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    OK, Rotella it is.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][FONT=Comic Sans MS]'91 Shadow convertible 2.5 auto, three core RP IC, S60/.48 stg 1, ported two-piece intake/52mm TB, Menegon +1 swirl, 88 turbo cam, Venolias, Crower rods, TU deep sump pan, ported exhaust, 3" from SV to TP, Hughes TC, Peloquin diff, DSS L5 driveshafts, Shelgame cal, Koni struts/shocks. [/FONT]

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    turbo addict boost geek's Avatar
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Got got back in the house, changed from 10/30 to Rotella T. Havent driven it yet, wonder how my oil pressure will be. Had plenty (with factory gauge), hopefully wont be too high when the temps dip.
    later Dick Westerhof

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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    I too have been running Shell Rotella in all my vehicles for years now! No scientific reason though....I drive the crap (just shy of abuse) out of my cars/trucks and figured if it was good for an engine that pulls several thousand pounds for hundred thousands of miles it cant hurt my 12 thousand mile/year car...
    Good info to know!!

  14. #14
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanman²'s Avatar
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by boost geek View Post
    Got got back in the house, changed from 10/30 to Rotella T. Havent driven it yet, wonder how my oil pressure will be. Had plenty (with factory gauge), hopefully wont be too high when the temps dip.
    Just make sure when its really cold, you let your motor warm up before you beat on it.

    BTW, it runs really smooth with the Shell in it.


    There is nothing wrong with name brand REAL synthetic oil, I will post links to Sport Rider, they did comparison testing on dino oil, synthetic and motorbike oil. Its a long read but its worth it. It will answer all your questions.

    http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

    http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  15. #15

    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Now I'm wondering if this is why I started getting marks in camshaft lobes on my roller cam with high-rate valvesprings...
    Mike, Do you mean wear marks like these? hope you can see the lobes in this photo.
    I first noticed this on my last inspection.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  16. #16
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Yeah, My cam has those too. Damn those are nice headers! I just ordered some Mobil 1 15-40 Turbo Diesel synthetic oil.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][FONT=Comic Sans MS]'91 Shadow convertible 2.5 auto, three core RP IC, S60/.48 stg 1, ported two-piece intake/52mm TB, Menegon +1 swirl, 88 turbo cam, Venolias, Crower rods, TU deep sump pan, ported exhaust, 3" from SV to TP, Hughes TC, Peloquin diff, DSS L5 driveshafts, Shelgame cal, Koni struts/shocks. [/FONT]

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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Mike, Do you mean wear marks like these? hope you can see the lobes in this photo.
    I first noticed this on my last inspection.
    I love that header, sigh!

    That head isn't stock is it?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  18. #18
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    I love that header, sigh!

    That head isn't stock is it?
    No, the valve guides have been tapered.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][FONT=Comic Sans MS]'91 Shadow convertible 2.5 auto, three core RP IC, S60/.48 stg 1, ported two-piece intake/52mm TB, Menegon +1 swirl, 88 turbo cam, Venolias, Crower rods, TU deep sump pan, ported exhaust, 3" from SV to TP, Hughes TC, Peloquin diff, DSS L5 driveshafts, Shelgame cal, Koni struts/shocks. [/FONT]

  19. #19

    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    That head isn't stock is it?
    Yup, Bone stock

    I didn't have those lobe marks till I started using 0W20 vis., but all other bearings are fine with it.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  20. #20
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Oil Additives Reduced

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Just make sure when its really cold, you let your motor warm up before you beat on it.

    BTW, it runs really smooth with the Shell in it.


    There is nothing wrong with name brand REAL synthetic oil, I will post links to Sport Rider, they did comparison testing on dino oil, synthetic and motorbike oil. Its a long read but its worth it. It will answer all your questions.

    http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

    http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/
    Simon - great links! PS - I used to ride with SportRider mag's editor, Kent Kunitsugu, in Griiffith Park.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

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