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Thread: Microsquirt

  1. #21
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Thanks for the tips guys. I'll look into both of those options. I need to do some math also, because the version I purchased has the upgraded injector drivers which will do 19 amps. I'm not sure if the fact that these are peak hold injectors plays a role in determining any headroom for that limit.

  2. #22
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    they are still high impedance injector drivers even if they are rated at 19a max. which probably means that you really only want to run them at 10ish continuous. they rate them higher so that you can run multiple sets of low impedance on v6/v8 etc applications.

    They do not have peak/hold circuitry. you can add peak/hold drivers to the setup but it will require some additional circuitry.

    Resistors with low impedance injectors work but they change the latency values as the injector doesnt have that burst of current available (peak) to open them quickly and then lower current to keep them open (hold) with resistors and saturated injector drivers.

    or as others said, low impedance injectors. snake eater performance, used SRT stage 1/2 injectors, siemens deka pencil type etc.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  3. #23
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Thanks for the info. Sounds like I would be better off to spring for the new injectors.

  4. #24
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Alright, since I'll build an injector harness anyway, which injector style would you guys recommend? It looks like I'll need the loner 60mm units to mate up with my fuel rail, but from there I'm not so sure. The folks at snake eater performance don't do the best job with specs on their site.

  5. #25
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    https://www.snakeeaterperformance.co...3psi-injectors

    probably more than youll need unless you have everything ported with a cam and a big turbo. unfortunately sold out for now.

    in other words, EV1, and Long are the terms you are looking for.

    that said, from what I hear, the bosch style (not siemens/deka pencil style like i posted above) are easier to control at low pulsewidths.

    https://www.snakeeaterperformance.co...0-14-14-1000cc

    these should work.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  6. #26
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    yeah if you are building the harness from scratch and choose a non-EV1 injector (EV-1 is the stock style injector connector) you just need to buy EV6/EV14 electrical connectors and the appropriate injector hat for the length of injector chosen vs the overall length you need to fit between the rail and the intake. I would suggest the top hat with injector clips to keep them from blowing off the rail in a rail-bolt-come-loose scenario VS bottom hat's which can effect the spray pattern as they get between the injector and the manifold. a couple of washers or o-rings can make sure that the injectors stay where you put them too.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  7. #27
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Microsquirt

    I personally wouldnt use the snakeeaters. Quite a few people I know have had issues with them as of late. The other bad thing is that if you do have an issue and it doesnt blow your engine up, they are very strict on their warranty claims. You MUST have the correct size filters in the correct places throughout your fuel system or they will not warranty your injectors.

    I've had pretty good luck with Fuel Injector Connection Injectors in all my race builds and numerous friends run them as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    https://www.snakeeaterperformance.co...3psi-injectors

    probably more than youll need unless you have everything ported with a cam and a big turbo. unfortunately sold out for now.

    in other words, EV1, and Long are the terms you are looking for.

    that said, from what I hear, the bosch style (not siemens/deka pencil style like i posted above) are easier to control at low pulsewidths.

    https://www.snakeeaterperformance.co...0-14-14-1000cc

    these should work.

    Brian

  8. #28
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    This is my cost from 2017. You'll need to update it and see if you can do it cheaper.

    MicroSqurit Total Cost -$1,470

    36-1 wheel welded to crank -$100
    Balanced crank pulley -$74.31
    Microsquirt + 8 ft harness -$369
    36-1 wheel -$32.00
    crank sensor -$43
    QuadSpark -$89.00
    MAP sensor connector -$8.50
    MAT sensor connector -$10.00
    ECT sensor connector -$10.00
    TPS sensor connector -$10.00
    420A wires -$20
    420A coil -$20
    Wiring Connector packs -$30
    USB to serial -$15
    Misc wires -$40
    Uninsulated crimp -$20
    Crimp tool -$13
    Shrink Wrap -$10
    Misc bolts -$15
    Relay -$15
    Fusebox -$25
    Fuses -$5
    E85 sensor + connector -$80
    Injector resistor -$30
    Wire loop -$20
    On/Off 12v valve for idle control -$30
    3m tape -$6
    Tuner Studio and Megaviewer -$79.95
    lilknockmeter -$119.95
    BOSCH knock sensor 0261231038 -$25.00
    TPS connector for knock sensor -$11.95
    step down stud for knock sensor N90905502 -$2.49
    I am logging a lilknockmeter and most of what I get out of it is noise. I think my crankcase pressure sees knock more easily than the knock meter.

    I also think he could cut out half this cost if he really wanted. He could also spend more depending on the materials chosen.
    I would rather have the $1,400 install than a $600 install after all the work gets done if time costs you money.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  9. #29
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I am logging a lilknockmeter and most of what I get out of it is noise. I think my crankcase pressure sees knock more easily than the knock meter.

    I also think he could cut out half this cost if he really wanted. He could also spend more depending on the materials chosen.
    I would rather have the $1,400 install than a $600 install after all the work gets done if time costs you money.
    You're suggesting that the Lilknockmeter doesn't work well for you? I'm amazed that there aren't more widely available, affordable solutions for knock given how well our stuff from the last millennium accurately detects and handles it.

  10. #30
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    You're suggesting that the Lilknockmeter doesn't work well for you? I'm amazed that there aren't more widely available, affordable solutions for knock given how well our stuff from the last millennium accurately detects and handles it.
    It would probably be better if the creator was more interested in it. I think he is a very bright person who understands his product too well and uses it with an exact setup of his own vehicle.

    Chatting with him on email is difficult. Communicating with the device requires lots of USB driver headaches, which weren't compatible with the drivers I had to use on the AEM piggyback I was messing with. I have an audio jack too. 91m bore Mitsubishi knock sensor screwed into a nut/bolt adapter that can screw into the rear facing side of the Chrysler 3.0 block. My 1992 Diamante 3.0 blocks have a proper central knock boss in the block valley.

    I originally wanted to use it to have a voltage output that could be used by the older Megasquirt knock inputs. I think that expectation isn't really its strength.
    MSpro can look at knock signal directly and I believe in a specific window of crank rotation for each cylinder.

    My Fueltech can't do anything with knock so I just log the voltage and crankcase pressures (2 separate sensors) and look for overlaps. I think I wasted too much of my life worrying about knock detection without spending enough of my life creating knock.
    Buying both a flex fuel sensor and knock sensor setup is "extra" as E85 sorta negates knock sensor noise. Flex Fuel is also a massive hassle. If you can run all E85, do it. Pull 30-40% fuel if you have an emergency. You can do that by changing required fuel Stoich settings in Megasquirt using your phone and MS droid app. E10 is 14.2 E85 is like 9.7. Change nothing else. Pull global timing if you plan on seeing boost.
    A professional Flex Fuel tune can double tune costs. Nobody likes doing it. I will probably start using my Flex Fuel sensor for Flex tune when I install the "built" motor my Spirit has had on the shelf for 3 years. Pretty risky on a weak piston motor unless I spend a lot of time I don't have.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-16-2023 at 12:31 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  11. #31
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Took me a couple of nights to fine tune the little knock meter's configuration on a 2.2L and I used a BOSCH wideband knock sensor.

    Is the Mitsubishi knock sensor a wideband sensor? Turbo Dodge uses a narrowband knock sensor so I didn't use it.

  12. #32
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Took me a couple of nights to fine tune the little knock meter's configuration on a 2.2L and I used a BOSCH wideband knock sensor.

    Is the Mitsubishi knock sensor a wideband sensor? Turbo Dodge uses a narrowband knock sensor so I didn't use it.
    Its tuned to the bore size, so no.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  13. #33
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Loudexploder View Post
    I personally wouldnt use the snakeeaters. Quite a few people I know have had issues with them as of late. The other bad thing is that if you do have an issue and it doesnt blow your engine up, they are very strict on their warranty claims. You MUST have the correct size filters in the correct places throughout your fuel system or they will not warranty your injectors.

    I've had pretty good luck with Fuel Injector Connection Injectors in all my race builds and numerous friends run them as well.
    this is my latest injector project. I have a turbo honda K series CR-V ultra-sleeper project. 5-speed, awd, turbo k24, hondata etc. if you know, you know I will most likely need big injectors as the head flows like mad and I do have the 3 lobe cams (flipped pin vtec) to swap into my head so ill have some more flow than the econo k series cams.

    So im doing some decapping of some stock Ford injectors that i read will flow a reliable, even 1000cc/min when decapped. So off to ebay i go for some Ford econoline injectors. 100$ for 8.

    I taped off the inlet of one this evening and slowly ground at an angle with the bench grinder until the laser drilled cap popped off. you cannot touch the inner pintle and hole area as they may not seal or will not have even flow.

    here are the pics of the injectors with the cap and the 4 holes, and without the cap. took a few min grinding really slow until i got through the ring of weld and the cap popped off.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have one of those cheap injector tester boxes hooked to a DC Solid State Relay so I can drive all of them in parallel. Im running it all from a jump box with a 87 T1 Fuel Rail, cheap ebay pump in a gas can (mineral spirits... dont use gas) and the stock regulator and 4 graduated cylinders to see if they flow even. When I get the ghetto flow bench set up, I will take some pics of that.

    That said, some decapped high impedance injectors (LS tend to flow 80lb when uncapped but you need a bunch of them so you can pick the 4 that flow the closest) will support 99% of our builds when using something like a megasquirt.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #34
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    My 60lb injectors have arrived. I just need to put together a cylinder head, and trans to get this going.

  15. #35
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    Re: Microsquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    My 60lb injectors have arrived. I just need to put together a cylinder head, and trans to get this going.
    cool!

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  16. #36
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    I think I'm going to give this a go in a car with the distributor. Even if I need to get a TBI dist, it's a bolt in affair that should be relatively simple. If that doesn't work out, then I'll get a trigger wheel setup.

  17. #37
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    hmm what about a 1985 distributor....

    it should be easier to decode than the 86+ stuff with the annoying window that is difficult to deal with.

    the 85 uses a 4 blade shutter wheel on the rotor (4 cyl trigger edge) and then a half moon under the HEP (cyl 1 deal). i wonder if the microsquirt can trigger off of that sequentially just by picking settings rather than specific decoder schemes.

    86+ TBI distributor certainly will work for a simple setup batch injected with a single coil and standard distributor.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  18. #38
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    I'm hoping to dig into this somewhat. It seems like there are very few people running a stock dist with MS2/Microsquirt. Perhaps if I can be a testbed, they can work with me somehow to make it better. The factory did sequential with the turbo cars. Couple that with the ability to pull timing from individual cylinders when it senses knock, and the stock computers look like they were lightyears ahead of the game. I don't think you can get anything close to our stock computers right now for less than $1,800 or so for just the computer. It's got me thinking twice, but I think once I get used to Microsquirt, a full blown MS3pro or something might make more sense to me.

  19. #39
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    yeah the stock knock detection setup is pretty good. I did have some crazy idea to keep a stock ECU hooked up just for knock detection (with TONS of CEL codes masked) and just hook the CEL up to the input of a megasquirt/speeduino so that the stock system could trigger an overall timing retard from knock.

    in all reality though, a listening device and conservative timing can keep an engine together just fine. it just doesnt have that safety net of an automated timing retard from knock.

    Brian

    - - - Updated - - -

    Keith Daigle (risen) and I worked on a TPIC8101 based knock detection system using an arduino but we never got it totally tested to release. it basically had the capabilities of the stock knock detection system. the github repo is out there if someone wants to pick up the project. I think the 8v HEP was decoded in that code too possibly. I was initially testing it on a neon and high RPM and all the calc's were getting to be too much for the arduino possibly.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  20. #40
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Microsquirt

    I'll probably hook up a wideband knock sensor and monitor it manually to make sure everything is safe, and then let it ride. I'm generally very conservative in boost with my timing anyway.

    I think this project is going to get underway soon. I need to pick up a wideband controller for it, and that should be all I need if the stock HEP will indeed make it run.

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