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Thread: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

  1. #1
    Mitsu booster
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    87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Well I went through the usual diagnostic tests but Iím stuck on this one. 87 reliant 2.2 TBI automatic. Iíve been daily driving this for work the last couple months because of diesel prices, so I donít want to drive the truck back and forth at $6.50 a gallon. Left for work last night and made it only 2 blocks from the house before it stalled at the stop sign. No time to mess with it, so I walked back home jumped in the truck and went to work.

    Earlier today I went back down with some tools and started messing with it. Fuel pump primes, itíll fire for a second, then stalls. Will not fire again unless you let it sit a while.

    I pulled the regulator and thereís fuel there. Briefly cycled the key and itís pumping fuel no problem. Ohmíd the injector coil and itís 1.4-1.5 ohms. Jumped 12 voltsdirect to the coil and it clicks and you can see it spray down the throttle body. Then probed the injector connector and cranked it. It was bouncing around (as I would expect it to since I would imagine it runs a PWM signal) but was in the neighborhood of 1.5-2 volts. Car will start on ether and continue to run if you keep feeding it ether.

    only thing I can think is Iím not getting an accurate reading on the voltage going to the injector using the normal DMM. Any suggestions are appreciated!

  2. #2
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    hall effect pickup? they are known to go bad.

    map sensor signal wire volts with key on engine off?

    could be a number of things.

    Logic module in the kick panel full of ants? black and clearish connectors corroded?

    connections at the power module corroded?

    12v on one side of the coil, and one side of the injector when the fuel pump primes?

    shouldnt be too hard to diagnose. they are pretty simple. not GM HEI and a carburetor simple but not too far off.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  3. #3
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    hall effect pickup? they are known to go bad.

    map sensor signal wire volts with key on engine off?

    could be a number of things.

    Logic module in the kick panel full of ants? black and clearish connectors corroded?

    connections at the power module corroded?

    12v on one side of the coil, and one side of the injector when the fuel pump primes?

    shouldnt be too hard to diagnose. they are pretty simple. not GM HEI and a carburetor simple but not too far off.

    Brian
    I was thinking not the pickup since itíll stay running with ether so it has ignition. I havenít checked the LM yet but will tomorrow. What would be needed to test the wire at the injector directly. I assume a meter that can measure duty cycle? Didnít check the MAP voltage I assumed theyíre totally different circuits as they come out of the ecu

  4. #4
    turbo addict
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    stalled at stopsign...

    was your foot on the brake?
    a leaking booster will stall you out when you step on the brakes

    stalling when coming to a stop could well be the speed sensor too.. it's a common fail when they go

    booster is easy to check ..disconnect the vacuum hose to the booster and plug it with a bolt..see if stalling ceases

  5. #5
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    MAP sensor is where I would start.

    Unplug it and see if car continues to run and not stall. The ECU will use "substitute values" to keep running once the sensor is out of range (unplugged)

    Gary


    Working on clearing the decks.

  6. #6
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Thank you guys! Iím leaning toward the MAP as well. Was going to ask if I could simply unplug it and get it home via limp mode. I thought I remember being able to do that with other TDís in the past and just get a 13 or 14.

  7. #7
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    At the vehicle now. No change whether MAP is plugged in or not. Voltage at injector connector is 3.xx at prime cycle, between 1.5 to 2.5 during cranking. This is probing positive wire of connector and negative probe of meter directly on ground of battery.

  8. #8

    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    We need some more direction. What is missing that is causing it to stall:

    If you give the engine some throttle on startup does it stay running... if so IAC issue.
    If you spray some starter fluid and it stays running longer, then a fuel issue.
    If you have a spark tester or a test light you can confirm spark continuing.

    Note that this is just direction, not the solution. ie. fuel issue could be fuel injector, computer, wiring, fuel pump, etc.

  9. #9
    turbo addict
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    start with the last thing you did with the car
    you slowed down and stopped...and stalled

    brake booster stalls while braking
    speed sensor stalls once stopped ..and often throws no code



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    stalled at stopsign...

    was your foot on the brake?
    a leaking booster will stall you out when you step on the brakes

    stalling when coming to a stop could well be the speed sensor too.. it's a common fail when they go

    booster is easy to check ..disconnect the vacuum hose to the booster and plug it with a bolt..see if stalling ceases
    - - - Updated - - -

    start with the last thing you did with the car
    you slowed down and stopped...and stalled

    brake booster stalls while braking
    speed sensor stalls once stopped ..and often throws no code

  10. #10
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Thanks for the advice guys. It would seem itís narrowed down to a voltage to the injector issue. It will start with starting fluid and continue to run if you keep feeding the ether in the TB. It did stall while hitting the brake but that could be coincidental. Using the ASD jumper technique there is voltage at the positive terminal of the coil but not at the injector harness. Iím trying to back probe the 10 pin on the PM to see if I have the voltage there Iím supposed to have.

    I drove the car the night before it had this issue and drive it a few times a week about 20 miles round trip. If power is jumped to the injector it sprays after pump primes to build pressure. If you manage to start it with ether it does not stay running no matter what you do with the throttle. Iíve confirmed injector is not spraying

  11. #11

    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    I believe that since these are low-impedance injectors that should have a peak and hold waveform. You will need a scope to see if the pattern is correct. Decent chance the injector drivers are fried... still could be a wiring harness or connector issue too.

  12. #12
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    I believe that since these are low-impedance injectors that should have a peak and hold waveform. You will need a scope to see if the pattern is correct. Decent chance the injector drivers are fried... still could be a wiring harness or connector issue too.
    to be honest Iím not sure if the TBI injector is low or high impedance, but I know the power is supposed to be constant 12 volt and the PW is controlled by the switching of the ground leg. Iím not getting voltage to the injector at all at this point and thatís with my ground clamp direct to the battery

  13. #13

    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Going by memory sitting in Chrysler dealer training, early TBI had switched positive at injector, and in 1988 all changed to toggled ground side.??? and my memory isnt that good.

    And it should be a .95 ohm injector. Had many problems with that injector. Changed many of them under campaign 97 warranty recall.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  14. #14
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Going by memory sitting in Chrysler dealer training, early TBI had switched positive at injector, and in 1988 all changed to toggled ground side.??? and my memory isnt that good.

    And it should be a .95 ohm injector. Had many problems with that injector. Changed many of them under campaign 97 warranty recall.

    The TBI injectors are known to be junky, changed many, many, many of them out.


    Working on clearing the decks.

  15. #15
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Can anyone confirm if in 87 the injector is being fired by switching the positive or the ground? Iím definitely not getting voltage at the injector harness so if itís supposed to be just switching ground I have another issue. If it is supposed to switch power I could still have an issue further back, perhaps an input to the LM or the LM itself

  16. #16

    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by TIIIReliant View Post
    Can anyone confirm if in 87 the injector is being fired by switching the positive or the ground? Iím definitely not getting voltage at the injector harness so if itís supposed to be just switching ground I have another issue. If it is supposed to switch power I could still have an issue further back, perhaps an input to the LM or the LM itself
    Yes, If your 87 does not have SMEC, and uses the logic module/power module; then the injector is pulsed by the power module on the positive side. The injector was provided a constant ground on the WT wire; and when the inj. was turned on, the power module would supply 12V on the TN wire.
    Also, the TBI's did not use an injector driver. Rather, they used a complicated circuit (comparator network)to supply 12 volts to the injector. The results are the same, but the methods were different.
    I verified what I remembered by looking back in my old Chrysler drivability workbook. I even wrote a note about it in my workbook.
    The as installed injector had a black body. The warranty injector had a red body. .95 ohms.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  17. #17
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    Re: 87 reliant start and immediately stalls

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Yes, If your 87 does not have SMEC, and uses the logic module/power module; then the injector is pulsed by the power module on the positive side. The injector was provided a constant ground on the WT wire; and when the inj. was turned on, the power module would supply 12V on the TN wire.
    Also, the TBI's did not use an injector driver. Rather, they used a complicated circuit (comparator network)to supply 12 volts to the injector. The results are the same, but the methods were different.
    I verified what I remembered by looking back in my old Chrysler drivability workbook. I even wrote a note about it in my workbook.
    The as installed injector had a black body. The warranty injector had a red body. .95 ohms.
    very good to know! NAJ on the other forum floated that it could be pulsed by the power side but couldnít remember with any certainty. That would at least explain why Iím not getting constant 12 volts as one would expect with MPFI. Thanks!

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