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Thread: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

  1. #21
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Early 6 bolt cranks require a 3 bolt flexplate and converter.

    Later 8 bolt cranks require a 4 bolt flexplate and converter.

    Pump and pump drives don't interchange between early and late trans.

    The later 1986 to 1989 3 speed is far superior to the early unit.

    You'll no doubt want a non lockup Turbo version.

    If you can't use a 1986 to 1988 crank you need a custom converter.

    It needs to be 3 bolt on the flexplate side and 4 bolt on the pump side.

    This is one of the oddity's we deal with when upgrading.

    The later trans has superior larger inner spline axles.

    Any K type car from 1987 to 1990 will fit and work well.

    K type includes Daytona, Shadow, Aries, etc,

    Anything but an L body or minivan.

    There are several final drive ratios available:

    2.86 ring gear and .91, 1.96 and 1.22 transfer gears.

    Lots of great info here!!

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  2. #22
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Stock exhaust manifold vs header !!

    The fastest guys run both and are very close in power.

    I don't think the header guys have any advantage.

    One of our ongoing debates when the forum was more active!!

    I would try a manifold first for cost and simplicity.

    Our Engines have a limited cyl head so typically we make more torque that HP.

    Only 2 heads were used, the early G style and the later Swirl or Fastburn.

    Most of the fast guys run the early G style head as it flows better.

    It's also a bit less detonation prone which is the enemy.

    As you will be using it you will require matching small dish pistons.

    That's if NHRA is fussy on compression ratio, which I assume they are.

    Later swirl heads 1986 and newer require a larger dish piston.

    There are a few guys running A-413 automatics, they probably know the latest trans info.

    The 3.0 minivan and Neon 3 speed auto are basically the same with some good parts.

    Well respected member Wayne Hemingway runs one in his brilliant 11 sec minivan.

    Well respected member Warren Stramer runs one in his brilliant 8 sec Laser.

    Both will no doubt have lots of good trans info to share.

    Neither are class racers but are a wealth of knowledge.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  3. #23
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    As far as power band goes its hard to get high RPM power with our heads.

    With stock cams retarding the cam does move it to the right.

    I guess you can run any cam in stock??

    The early cams used slider rocker arms and 1988 and up were rollers.

    I don't know if you have to run the original slider or not.

    The slider is actually better for performance use in my opinion.

    All lifters or lash adjusters are hydraulic and tend to get air entrained.

    Some use later PT lifters as they have a bleed hole.

    They are shorter so they require washers to shim up the difference.

    I don't know the NHRA lifter rules but some make the originals solid.

    That's a lot of trial and error but can solve the high rpm air entrainment.

    We'll be following along and offering any info you might need.

    Hopefully well learn from your legal stocker too !!


    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  4. #24
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Thanks for the information so quick.
    so here are some of the answers and questions

    1st NHRA considers the rockers just that rockers, so I can use either. I totally understand on the slider being and advantage.
    On lifters, I can bottom them out and use shims to make it a solid lifter cam. I would have to take that into account when I grind the cam.

    on the convertor I will look for the later cranks, but I can get a flywheel and convertor built to whatever I need.

    on compression you have to use the gasket and deck clearance which is usually tighter that production

    here is the spec


  5. #25
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Sounds like you have a lifter plan already!!

    I can't read the specs as it says "zonks you've taken a wrong turn"??

    It hardly matters as I'm old with weak eyesight and a computer dumdum.

    The 6 bolt cranks were normally O.K. in regular service.

    They were up graded to 8 as some early IMSA Engines had bolt loosening issues.

    The later crank means the later trans and converter all match.

    The newer stuff any make maintenance etc. much easier.

    And, a larger differential with larger inner axle splines

    Our Engines don't really have much squish as delivered.

    Pistons are often about .018" down hole and factory head gaskets compress to about .068"

    Some of us deck the block so the pistons stand proud as the .068" is still too much.

    Cometic are available in different thickness, one of the few non stock things available to us.

    But I assume you will be blueprinting your Engine as per NHRA rules.

    As to head casting #'s, 4105445 is a G head for 1983-84 Engines.

    4323287 is another G head for 1985 Engines,

    Essentially the same but is reamed for 11 mm head bolts with an extra A/C boss.

    All later Swirl or Fastburn heads are 4105782 casting.

    No doubt you will be using the 445 head, same casting for Turbo and N/A.

    Turbo valves were Inconel buT you'll no doubt be using aftermarket.

    When you strip the Engine note the oil pump and its block hole.

    They are a huge mismatch so we normally port the block to match.

    Thanks
    Randy

    PS: Richard Holdener is doing some 1984 2.2 Turbo testing on youtube.
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...jpJOMfduM_rrn8

    David Vizard is testing and porting a G head for him on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNsoMsJKqg
    Last edited by GLHS60; 09-18-2022 at 01:31 AM.


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  6. #26
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    here are the head castings that are approved
    Cylinder Head Castings
    A=4105445,4323287 B=4027163,4027593,4323302, 4448308, 4772576

    here are the approved manifolds 4323280,4105467
    do these manifolds really suck as bad as they look


    HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Gasket Springs



    146 135 .008 Dished .175 8.0 cc 1598/1394 445/445 .068 Outer wDamper

    will a later block and crank work with these head castings
    I can use any block

  7. #27
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    The later block and crank will work with any head. Yes, the manifolds are as bad as they look.

  8. #28
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    The first two head #'s are known 1984-85 2.2 cyl heads but the others seem more like LA numbers??

    Correct, those intakes are a suck through design as opposed to the later blow through design.

    The Turbo seal must be a 4 piece carbon style to prevent oil ingestion.

    This is because the throttle body location keeps the Turbo under Engine vacuum.

    There are 2 distinct Engine family's:

    The first ran from 1981 to 1988 and had a fuel pump block off plate and square tooth timing belt.

    The 1989 and newer are referred to as common blocks as both the 2.2 and 2.5 shared blocks.

    Prior 1986- 1988 2.5's were a tall deck design featuring a taller deck and of no concern here.

    The common blocks had a stronger block without fuel pump mount but a round tooth timing belt.

    This is important as cranks between common blocks and earlier Engines don't interchange.

    The crank snouts and sprockets are different so folks don't try to fit the wrong timing belt.

    All common block cranks are 8 bolt and if you use one you need its matching parts.

    EG: crank, cam and intermediate shaft sprockets along with crank seal retainers.

    As mentioned, the 8 valve heads are interchangeable and fit any 8 valve block.

    There was a Turbo III 16 valve DOHC 2.2 for a couple of years of no concern here.

    Thanks
    Randy


    Quote Originally Posted by Comp461 View Post
    here are the head castings that are approved
    Cylinder Head Castings
    A=4105445,4323287 B=4027163,4027593,4323302, 4448308, 4772576

    here are the approved manifolds 4323280,4105467
    do these manifolds really suck as bad as they look


    HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Gasket Springs



    146 135 .008 Dished .175 8.0 cc 1598/1394 445/445 .068 Outer wDamper

    will a later block and crank work with these head castings
    I can use any block


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  9. #29
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    looks like i need a common block and .2.2 crank
    I found pistons on the NHRA list but no rods
    135 84-85 All Turbo 2.2 Federal-Mogul 532P and Ross 7594


    how strong are the rods, I can put bolt's in them,

  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    I don't think the FM 532P's are available any more.

    They were a nice cast piston but replaced with a Hypereutectic

    Hypers have a terrible reputation in our Engines due to cracking.

    Any hint of detonation and away they go with no second chance.

    The used OEM pistons stand up better than replacement hypers.

    Guys run Hypers in other Engines successfully but not ours.

    Ross forged would be the way to go if possible.

    We have 3 stock rods.

    1981-85 were all HD with a pressed pin.

    1986-88 were almost all LW with a pressed pin.

    1987 T-II Intercooled were the first HD full floating rods.

    All intercooled 2.2's and 2.5 T-I also used the full floating rods.

    LW rods were also used in all non turbo Engines from 1986 on.

    We don't suffer with many rod failures due to weak rods or bolts.

    I'd be tempted to run the Light Weight rods in a 2.2 stocker but most don't.

    LA rod bolts fit our rods but are usually sold in sets of 8, not 4.

    Thanks
    Randy

    Quote Originally Posted by Comp461 View Post
    looks like i need a common block and .2.2 crank
    I found pistons on the NHRA list but no rods
    135 84-85 All Turbo 2.2 Federal-Mogul 532P and Ross 7594


    how strong are the rods, I can put bolt's in them,


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  11. #31
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    just talked to Ross and they still make all of the pistons.

    I am trying to source a block and crank.

    I have a box I am saving everything I am removing according to the rules and guessing on what it weighs

  12. #32
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Sounds like you are off to a good start!!

    Some member must have a block and crank available?

    I have several but we are many thousands of miles apart.

    2.2 Turbo's were all Intercooled versions from 1989 and on.

    The intercooled 2.2's were the only Engines to run a heavier steel crank.

    Most certainly overkill for your and most Engine combinations.

    Our cast cranks are extremely tough, breakage is virtually unheard of.

    All our cranks feature a rolled radius, this no doubt increases durability.

    But, 2.5 Turbo blocks are very common as well as 2.2 TBI cranks.

    Turbo and TBI blocks are the same except for the Turbo oil drain.

    TBI blocks have the oil drain boss, it just needs to be drilled out.

    A 1989 and newer complete 2.2 used Engine might be the way.

    This way you get all the incidentals that are Common Block.

    There's a bit more than I previously mentioned:

    Oil pan, timing belt pensioner come to mind.

    Just a bit more info to consider.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  13. #33
    turbo addict
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Quote Originally Posted by Comp461 View Post
    just talked to Ross and they still make all of the pistons.
    I stopped using Ross years ago. They were longer than six months out on lead time for pistons. That seems ridiculous to me. Diamond has probably made pistons for all our applications, but I stopped using them too. I don't think their CNC operators can read, or have a serious case of ADHD, as about 90% of my piston orders from them had something wrong with them. Last time they couldn't even get the quantity right! The time before that my 8v pistons had Lotus 16V reliefs cut in them! Time before that the oiler for pins was not in the correct location. On another order the piston skirt was like .250" thick! Pistons were like 350g overweight! There response was you didn't order the light weight option! WTF? Their attention to the details is horrible. Then to top it off they're stupidly expensive too.
    I now buy all my pistons from JE. They're the lightest and reasonable in lead time. Zero issues with them.
    Todd

  14. #34
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Curious if JE is an approved NHRA piston vendor for 2.2's?

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  15. #35
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Curious if JE is an approved NHRA piston vendor for 2.2's?

    Thanks
    Randy
    No JE is not. I talked to Ed at Ross, I use to race against him. He said 12 weeks.

    so I have spent the better part of the last two days removing and cleaning.

    I need floor pans and I will uses tubing to firm it up with a 6 point cage.
    where can I get floor pans for these







    what is this , i have got to wiring yet




    do they make not AC non-Power steering brackets?



    Thanks everyone for the help.


    I am having more fun with this than my top dragster build
    Last edited by Comp461; 07-19-2022 at 09:31 PM.

  16. #36
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Connector you showed is the diagnostic port.

    Non AC brackets are readily available. You can just remove the power steering bracket and run a manual rack if youíre so inclined. A lot of guys just loop the PS lines and call it a day, but I think thatís too hard on the column and associated pieces after all these years.

  17. #37
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    Best of luck on the pistons!!

    I don't think anyone makes replacement floor pans.

    Someone mentioned early Mustang pans can be trimmed to fit??

    That looks like the baro read solenoid??

    There are non A/C alternator brackets??

    Some just remove the P/S pump and brackets.

    They usually loop the lines together so the rack doesn't leak.

    I think there might be a manual rack available from another K car.

    If there is, the coupler usually needs replacing as well.

    There used to be a youtube on gutting a P/S rack.

    Hopefully someone else has better answers!

    Thanks
    Randy



    Quote Originally Posted by Comp461 View Post
    No JE is not. I talked to Ed at Ross, I use to race against him. He said 12 weeks.

    so I have spent the better part of the last two days removing and cleaning.

    I need floor pans and I will uses tubing to firm it up with a 6 point cage.
    where can I get floor pans for these







    what is this , i have got to wiring yet




    do they make not AC non-Power steering brackets?



    Thanks everyone for the help.


    I am having more fun with this than my top dragster build


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  18. #38
    Mitsu booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    OK I am ordering pistons. NHRA rules say up to .080 over max. What can these little blocks bore to. I was thinking .060. I was going to pull the trigger on a set, they were about $100 bill each.
    What head gaskets are available for these. Hope Cometic makes one. Total deck is .068 stock gasket and .008 deck. so total is .076 if I zero deck it.

  19. #39
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    The anecdotal thinking is .060" is max.

    Probably due to that's the largest ever offered in the past.

    I have an old Hot Rod 2.2 book that had info on thr old IMSA 2.2's

    There was mention of a 3.5" bore but I believe it mentioned furnace brazing.

    Cometic does, or at least did offer 2.2 gaskets in custom thicknesses.

    I've never used one but someone on here will no doubt speak up.

    Factory MP gaskets were always the go to but are no longer available.

    As they compressed at .068" I ran my my pistons "proud" to get .035 squish.

    You need to conform to NHRA, so my experience is of little value.

    Thanks
    Randy

    PS: The one guy who sonic checked blocks is Warren Stramer.

    Any of his threads are well worth reading, he's on another level.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...warren+stramer
    Last edited by GLHS60; 07-21-2022 at 01:34 AM.


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  20. #40
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

    This thread has info on a manual steering rack.

    Thanks
    Randy
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ing+conversion


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

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