NHRA check list for Stock Eliminator

[Comp461]

NHRA checklist for Stock Eliminator.
First, I am so enjoying reading through this forum. This place was much like the diesel forums, a great place to gather and meet friends. I am learning so much with just the search button.

I know that many of the answers have changed over time. I am going full tilt with running one of these cars in Stock Eliminator. Our girl is aging out of her Jr dragster. I have a Top Dragster I considered putting her in, but I do not want to waste her skill on a button car. The talent it takes to race off the bottom bulb on a foot brake is something that 90% of the current racer will never master.


I have received a lot of help already from a few members here, and I can not express my gratitude to those individuals. I have raced in many NHRA categories from the very advanced, to stock.
So here are some items I'm looking for answers to. I have spent more than a few hours on the phone with NHRA, and without telling them too much, learned the firm boundary and also the gray areas and the ambiguous areas.


1st I want to make the car repeatable. I believe that the starting line is critical. It is important to have the RPM and boost exactly the same every time she lets off the foot brake. How is everyone setting up a 2 step ( starting line rev limiter)? What ignition box? I will use a brake pressure switch off the master cylinder to trigger it. I also want to limit boost off starting line to have a smooth repeatable launch. Not necessarily low boost but have it exactly the same each time. I will eventually go to a Holley ECM. If these cars are as fast as I believe, then it's critical to not kill the NHRA HP factor of 165 hp on 1989 non-intercooled 2.5. Rather than killing the top-end performance and critical MPH needed in bracket racing. My thoughts are somehow limit boost for a given time frame.
thanks in advance for the answers

[Fenderbass]

Hey brother. It's super awesome that you are doing this for your daughter. I hope to do the same for my girls when they get older.

There are 2-stage and low/high boost functions in MpTune. It would require you to install MPFlash on the ecu. I'm not sure if the rules allow tampering with the ECU, but rules in racing are more like ballpark suggestions anyways :-)

Another option would be to run a dual stage boost controller and left-foot brake...

[Comp461]

The rules are wide open on ECM. I will be changing to a Holley Terminator or Holley HP as I get time. I am going to put a pressure switch on the master cylinder. This will activate the 2 step and hopefully a boost limiter. What that boost and RPM is I could use some guidance on. For that matter I'm told that using VP C10 I can run over 20 lbs of boost on the run.


I am trying to get the car from the northwest to the DFW area so that she can run the Division 4 event in OK city in 2 weeks. If I can get all the pieces to fall together, she will earn a grade point, allowing us to enter the NHRA Dallas National event the next week.


I am afraid of going to the divisional event without data and running too fast.
Here are the rules of stock HP as I understand them.
The average of all the runs, both qualifying and eliminations for that motor factor are compiled at the end of the season. If that average is faster than .80 under the index, 5 hp will be added to that engine. This is not just your runs but everyone using that engine.
If you ever run faster than 1.20 seconds under the factor is hit on Monday following the event.
There is one place where you can let it all hang out. The "BIG GO" The U.S. Nationals in Indy. This event is the biggest event for stockers and super stock.
The index for AF/S is 13.85 and weight / Horsepower is 13 lbs to 15.99
The 1989 2.5 turbo is factored at 165 hp.
I'm working with a 1989 Plymouth sundance at 13 lbs per hp the racing weight is 2145 + 170 lbs for the standard weight of the driver or 2315 lbs. We will be required to go across the scales every run.
Here are a few pictures of Hannah. She is not my daughter, but kind of like a granddaughter. I have been helping her and her uncle who is raising her for several years. She has some crazy hair colors lol, but she is a great kid. She is so focused on racing and sadly she will age out of Jr racing.

[wheming]

Greg,
Do you know if this car already has any ECU mods? The popular mod is to modify the ECU so that you either replace chips, or can reflash the ECU itself.
So, if in fact this type of mod is already done, you may be able to run a modified calibration that includes a 2 step. You would however need to pick from the available switch inputs to trigger the 2step, of which the brake switch is one. This is what I use myself.
There are a few settings you would have to set up within the cal, but it is pretty simple.
For a basically stock 2.5 T1, with stock ATX and converter, you should probably try to target 2500 rpm, (maybe even under) as with the Mitsu turbo there isn't much lag.

If the car doesn't have a modified ECU, then for now you would need an aftermarket 2 step, or try to source a flashable ECU for sale. I don't have an extra presently, but I may have one in a few more weeks.

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[Comp461]

Great information. I believe the car is prepped. Reverse VB and convertor. The break switch would be great if I can adjust it. In clutch car be call it “ switch”. It’s the amount of time the staging limiter is dropped before the total engagement or in this case release of break. So the stock ECM can do this. Great. I’ve enjoyed and learned a lot reading all of you answers to treads over the years. With this little project I’m working on going the distance with this platform in NHRA stock.
I’ve been fortunate enough to have been a part of training this young lady in my craft. Hannah is one of the best pure drivers I’ve ever worked with. She is super consistent on the tree. She also understands playing the stripe. I didn’t want to put her in a transbrake car with a delay box. Those things make make ever almost equal. She is a bottom bulb racer and I’m going to run her in a full season next year if these cars will preform like it appears they have in the past.
The secret is to not kill the motor factor and qualify in a good spot. Except. The “ big go”. If I can get it to run I want her to be number 1 qualifier. Well thanks for the info. I’m sure we will talk more.

[wheming]

If you have a PC, laptop or desktop with MPTune installed and setup (free software available here on the T-M EFI Tuning forum)
I could show you a few things about the 2 step (called Staging Limiter here).

While the entry conditions allow the Staging Limiter to be enabled, it doesn't actively engage until the RPM reaches the setpoint. There is a "reset" RPM also for it to stop spark cutting. So say 2500 rpm the staging Limiter activates, and you select 2350 rpm for it to stop limiting. (And again it activates once 2500 rpm is achieved as long as the enable switch is still engaged - the brake switch)

When you go to leave/launch and you remove your foot from the brake, there is a vehicle speed setting that will turn off the staging Limiter. You can try different MPH settings to see what works best. If there is some wheel spin at launch, then it basically will achieve that mph instantly, unless set to a higher value. Since the speed sensor is on the transaxle, wheel spin shows as a false vehicle speed.

This launch control, staging Limiter, and anti-lag timing is all built into the latest Turbonator based calibrations. There are several stock cals that have been converted to the Turbonator code template, so you can have these features with a stock or basically stock cal without having to change to a standalone. It has its shortcomings though, as this is 30+ year old technology, but it works pretty well for a wide variety of power levels.



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[Fenderbass]

I can't speak much to drag racing on this level, but MPTune is a wonderful program that's easy to learn and use. Every time I've gotten stuck, a bunch of the people in this forum were quick to help.

As a person who who works full time with teenagers, I so appreciate what you are doing with Hannah. The world needs more guys like you. Thank you.

- Chris

[Comp461]

This is what I like about this forum, Members freely giving valuable knowledge. I am anticipating a full-on stock. I would love to have anyone involved that wants to be. A full NHRA schedule involves your best 3 out of your first 5 national Events and your best 5 out of your first 8 divisionals. I plan on Hannah running the U.S Nationals, Vegas Divisional, and Nationals as they bracket the SEMA show and Dallas National event and divisional. With this schedule, it would be great to meet some of you at these events

- - - Updated - - -

This is what I like about this forum, Members freely giving valuable knowledge. I am anticipating a full-on stock. I would love to have anyone involved that wants to be. A full NHRA schedule involves your best 3 out of your first 5 national Events and your best 5 out of your first 8 divisionals. I plan on Hannah running the U.S Nationals, Vegas Divisional, and Nationals as they bracket the SEMA show and Dallas National event and divisional. With this schedule, it would be great to meet some of you at these events

[Comp461]

If you have a PC, laptop or desktop with MPTune installed and setup (free software available here on the T-M EFI Tuning forum)
I could show you a few things about the 2 step (called Staging Limiter here).

While the entry conditions allow the Staging Limiter to be enabled, it doesn't actively engage until the RPM reaches the setpoint. There is a "reset" RPM also for it to stop spark cutting. So say 2500 rpm the staging Limiter activates, and you select 2350 rpm for it to stop limiting. (And again it activates once 2500 rpm is achieved as long as the enable switch is still engaged - the brake switch)

How close together can you put these values , does it only cut spark or fuel as well. If only spark than it will be loud but drive the charger. I have a lot of experience with the Holley system( not tuning , but systems) If I can make this car race and win with the old system than that a cool challenge .

When you go to leave/launch and you remove your foot from the brake, there is a vehicle speed setting that will turn off the staging Limiter. You can try different MPH settings to see what works best. If there is some wheel spin at launch, then it basically will achieve that mph instantly, unless set to a higher value. Since the speed sensor is on the transaxle, wheel spin shows as a false vehicle speed.

This launch control, staging Limiter, and anti-lag timing is all built into the latest Turbonator based calibrations. There are several stock cals that have been converted to the Turbonator code template, so you can have these features with a stock or basically stock cal without having to change to a standalone. It has its shortcomings though, as this is 30+ year old technology, but it works pretty well for a wide variety of power levels.



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I have used drag radials and my experience with them is that they hook or not, no in-between, this causes a hook and spin that is hard on drive line. I have tried biases slicks and letting them spin and then come under the car some what like a clutch.

I have seen that there are two engine listed for most of these cars. a Non-intercooled 2.5 liter NHRA rated at 165 hp And a intercooled 2.2 liter NHRA rated at 183 hp. I would like over the next winter to building a pair of long blocks with good rods and pistons. How much power will these stock short blocks hold. Not sure the stock turbo size will make more power than a good set of reworked rods will hold. But today a good set of rods is not much more that reworking stock rods. I did notice a 4 bolt block or at least caps.






to anyone that wants to look at all of these classes here is the NHRA site , The engines are under engine blueprint and cars under stock cars
NHRARacer.com

[wheming]

You could try different values to see how close an on/off gap will still work properly. I don't remember what the default RPM spread is, but probably around 250 rpm or more.

In part of the configuration setup, you can select either spark cut or fuel cut. There is a option for the more violent Ban-Bang limiter. (I haven't used it personally.)

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[T1 woodywagon]

I have used drag radials and my experience with them is that they hook or not, no in-between, this causes a hook and spin that is hard on drive line. I have tried biases slicks and letting them spin and then come under the car some what like a clutch.

I have seen that there are two engine listed for most of these cars. a Non-intercooled 2.5 liter NHRA rated at 165 hp And a intercooled 2.2 liter NHRA rated at 183 hp. I would like over the next winter to building a pair of long blocks with good rods and pistons. How much power will these stock short blocks hold. Not sure the stock turbo size will make more power than a good set of reworked rods will hold. But today a good set of rods is not much more that reworking stock rods. I did notice a 4 bolt block or at least caps.






to anyone that wants to look at all of these classes here is the NHRA site , The engines are under engine blueprint and cars under stock cars
NHRARacer.com

Is there an approved rod for the engine you plan to build ?

[Comp461]

Yes NHRA has an approved rod, I acquired a 2.5 and 2.2 crank, having both nitrated. I Also sourced a few Unground lobe cam cores. CP and JE both have the specs on a piston and NHRA will approve it if you ask and go through the process.. Who else builds pistons that people have used.

I have heard a few things on the turbo. The only spec on the engine blue print is the inducer and wheel size. I talked to a few in NHRA tech and they are lost lol.
I need a few head casting if anyone has them or complete engine cores

[wheming]

Yes NHRA has an approved rod, I acquired a 2.5 and 2.2 crank, having both nitrated. I Also sourced a few Unground lobe cam cores. CP and JE both have the specs on a piston and NHRA will approve it if you ask and go through the process.. Who else builds pistons that people have used.

I have heard a few things on the turbo. The only spec on the engine blue print is the inducer and wheel size. I talked to a few in NHRA tech and they are lost lol.
I need a few head casting if anyone has them or complete engine cores

Where did you find "a few unground lobe cam cores"??
I had searched for some years ago and didn't have any luck.

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[T1 woodywagon]

I don't think your right about there being an approved rod for the 2.2/2.5 specifically. I looked on the approved rod list and didn't see one.

[CdnShelby]

Hey Just checking in to see if you made any progress with your project?

I have raced Stock and Super Stock for years. Last winter as a project we took a street driven '85 Town & Country wagon and prepped it for D/FS with a strict budget and kept a priority on not taking away any street manners.

I lent it to a friend for the NHRA National Open and we hit the index on street tires. Lots of tweaking could be done to make it run comfortably under the index. Was a fun project and it is resting patiently waiting for one of my kids to take the wheel this summer or next.

Love to hear more on your project

[Comp461]

Well, the year has been CRAZY ONE. We have been covered up on a land speed project and I have been on the road racing with a Pro Stock Team. The shadow car just never worked out; it was over 2000 miles away. so, I acquired parts and a 1984 turbo Daytona. The car is all there but it's been setting for a long time. I noticed the intake manifold is tiny. So I can streight this car to manybe a 86 on specs , what is the good and the bad

[GLHS60]

1984 was the first year of the 2.2 Turbo with its 1 year electronics and pneumatic waste gate.

1985 moved to somewhat improved electronics featuring an electronic waste gate.

1986 had better electronics with a larger diameter distributor than the 1984-85.

Pre. 1986 2.2 Engines contained HD press pin connecting rods, Turbo and N/A

1984 and 1985 Turbo Engines ran a Bathtub or a G head with small dish pistons.

1986 Turbo Engines contained Light Weight pressed pin rods with large dish pistons.

11 MM head bolts and 8 bolt cranks were a running change over 10 mm and 6 bolts.

1986 and newer Turbo Engines all had these but only late 1985's received them.

All 1986 and newer Engines used a Swirl or Fast burn cyl. head to match large dish pistons.

1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I intake manifolds are also comparable.

1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I Garrett draw through Turbos are comparable.

The 1984 wastegate is unique but 1985, 1986 and 1987 T-I are compatible.

All 2.2 T-I and T-II exhaust manifolds are comparable but 1987 up have a notch.

This notch can easily be ground into an earlier manifold if required.

The 1987 and 1987 Shelby GLHS Engines were stock T-I with intercooler.

The 1987 Shelby Z with 5 speed was the first true T-II Engine.

These featured steel crank, full floating rods, floating pistons and 2 piece intake.

1988 T-I, the only 2.2 to run the smaller Mitsu turbo with blow through 1 piece intake.

It ran L-W pressed pin rods with matching pressed pin pistons.

Thanks
Randy

Well, the year has been CRAZY ONE. We have been covered up on a land speed project and I have been on the road racing with a Pro Stock Team. The shadow car just never worked out; it was over 2000 miles away. so, I acquired parts and a 1984 turbo Daytona. The car is all there but it's been setting for a long time. I noticed the intake manifold is tiny. So I can streight this car to manybe a 86 on specs , what is the good and the bad

[Comp461]

thanks so much for the detailed reply.

I go the car home; I have a lot of work ahead of me.

I have the Holley Terminator ECM so that fixes the electronics
I need to fix a little rust in the floor pans, a window was broken out on drivers' side.
The motor turns over free.

Here is a big question what the difference in a turbo and a turbo Z is the 26 lbs is the difference in the car being a natural B car or a Natural A car.

[GLHS60]

Turbo Z is a trim package with ground effects etc.

The early ones had Turbo Z embossed in the rear bumper cover.

Allegedly Nissan complained about the Z so they stopped using it.

Same Engine and transmission as Turbo, either auto or 5 sp.

5 speed transaxle is the weak link.

1987 5 sp was vastly improved.

Thanks
Randy

[Comp461]

so a few decals and maybe ground effects. I can use any 3-speed automatic transmission from the manufacture. I have been looking at the half shafts and CV joints as to the best ones. I'm not sure how much power this motor can make with the NHRA limitations. anyone have an idea

I will be using NHRA spec fuel ( SR18 ) which is around 120 octane

I plan on fully utilizing all of the abilities of the Holley ECM. One of those is absolute wastegate control. I will be able to tailor boost to the most optimal and smooth launch and raise boost down track for maximal MPH in the traps. I will build a header and mount the turbo on this.

So, what you recommend for the transmission. I will use a Coan convertor.

I would like to know what your feel the power band will be.
With camshaft I feel I can raise the RPM level as much as possible and match it with convertor. What gear ratios are available also
Thanks in advance, I have a lot to accomplish on this car and any help would be greatly appreciated.

I do advanced engine development but this one has so many many limits of what you can and can't do