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Thread: Harmonic Balancers?

  1. #1
    Mitsu booster
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    Harmonic Balancers?

    So im getting my build under way, and have come to wonder "why dont we have harmonic balancers?"

    Im sure that someone is going to chime in "an inline 4 is inherently balance." But that has nothing to do with torsion vibrations from the chuffing of the cylinders.

    Have any of the bug race homies snapped crankshafts before? Are there crankshaft preparations that i should pay to have done prior to assembly? Cryo maybe?

    Thank you all for the help and support!
    ~Mark B

  2. #2
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    The one thing people never have problems with is breaking cranks. I've literally never seen or heard of it from anyone I know.

  3. #3
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Harmonic balancers are just that, designed to cancel or negate inherent resonant frequencies in the engine. The problem is worst in an in-line 6. There were two approaches, US manufacturers balanced the engine at low to mid rpm range, and on a lot of the older engines if you approach it's "redline" it will shake like crazy. I had an old (1961) Mercedes 220Sb, on that little (2.2L) in-line 6, the balancing was for higher rpm as the car had 13" wheels and a 4.10 rear, if you got too low on the rpm it would shake like a dog drying off, and if you sat and just slowly brought the rpm up (no tach), a little above a fast idle, the harmonic vibration would set in.

    I know the flat 4s are pretty well inherently balanced, and most flat 6s, but Chevy did use a harmonic balancer on the hotter Corvair engines (it was famous for slipping). Biggest issue with the four cyl and automatic is the idle vibration, so much that the higher line K derived cars have rubber mounted lead triangle in the steering wheel to dampen the tendency of it to "dance" at a stop in gear.
    "growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
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  4. #4
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Our Engines harmonics are efficiently absorbed by the timing belt.

    No other is needed as proven by the lack of broken cranks etc.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
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  5. #5
    turbo addict boost geek's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    I agree with Randy on the timing belts many of us were using cast cranks me included 2.2 TBI crank failures were unheard of even Simon couldn't break one and he could break almost any thing lol
    Last edited by boost geek; 08-11-2020 at 12:45 AM.
    later Dick Westerhof

  6. #6
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Right on Dick!!

    The rolled radius on the crank certainly ads strength too.

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  7. #7
    turbo addict boost geek's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Hi Randy!, to correct my post Simon only ran 2.5 not 2.2 was there such a thing as 2.5 forged cranks? watching that heavy van launch was a cool sight to see!
    Last edited by boost geek; 08-11-2020 at 12:40 AM.
    later Dick Westerhof

  8. #8
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    The 2.5 cranks were cast.

  9. #9
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Both 2.2 and 2.5 feature a rolled radius crank so you're still correct old buddy!!

    Forged 2.5 cranks were common in Dreamland but not here on Earth.

    Thanks
    Randy

    Quote Originally Posted by boost geek View Post
    Hi Randy!, to correct my post Simon only ran 2,5 not 2.2 was there such a thing as 2.5 forged cranks? watching that heavy van launch was a cool sight to see!


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  10. #10
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Ha, its interesting that yall mention the radiused crank. I just notice that when polishing my crank and though “huh, i thought that was a ‘high performance’ thing...guess i was wrong.” When in fact it is!

    My next build will be with a 2.5l crank and im thinking about sending it out for cryo after the machine work to hopefully get some extra durability out of her.

    ~Mark

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Oddly enough, one of the few cracked 2.2/2.5 crankshafts I have seen in person was on one that had been adapted to accept a harmonic balancer.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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  12. #12
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff 135sohc's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    That tiny little crank snout... not much there.
    1994 Shadow Sedan. 2.2 N/A, A568 377,000 miles. (In the family since new).
    1987 Shelby CSX #418. Long term rebuild and restore.

  13. #13
    turbo addict
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Both 2.2 and 2.5 feature a rolled radius crank so you're still correct old buddy!!

    Forged 2.5 cranks were common in Dreamland but not here on Earth.

    Thanks
    Randy
    Hey Randy,
    Here are some pictures from Dreamland. 2.5 forged crank. This crank was made by Velasco not by Chrysler. Honest, they do exist, not just very many of them. Same guy that owns it, also owns NOS Hans Herman head. MP had 2.5 forged cranks in their catalog starting in 1992. Can't imagine to many people popped for them. Then based on early block?
    Todd
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by 4 l-bodies; 10-24-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #14
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    Hey Randy,
    Here are some pictures from Dreamland. 2.5 forged crank. This crank was made by Velasco not by Chrysler. Honest, they do exist, not just very many of them. Same guy that owns it, also owns NOS Hans Herman head. MP had 2.5 forged cranks in their catalog starting in 1992. Can't imagine to many people popped for them. Then based on early block?
    Todd
    There were several different MP forged cranks to change the displacement of the engine for different classes. I would REALLY like to find a destroked 2.0 crank. I think they had them up to 2.7L? I could swear there was one that was longer than the 2.5's 4.09" stroke.

  15. #15
    turbo addict
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    There were several different MP forged cranks to change the displacement of the engine for different classes. I would REALLY like to find a destroked 2.0 crank. I think they had them up to 2.7L? I could swear there was one that was longer than the 2.5's 4.09" stroke.
    The large stroke MP crank was actually a bit smaller stroke at 3.994" vs. the production 4.09". Never heard of anything beyond 2.5 liter cranks. All motor (RIP) had a supposed 2.7 liter engine (circle track N/A car). Crank was a one off according to him. I remember him telling me it cost more than the whole rest of engine. .060" overbore accounts for about .10 liter in displacement, so his crank was around 4.250" stroke. I know of three people that have 2.0 liter forged cranks. All on the back burner as far as builds. I know of two turbo 2.3 liter Chryslers. One by slight stroke, the other by big overbore. Teaser picture of 2.0 crankshaft.
    Todd
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by 4 l-bodies; 10-26-2020 at 09:39 PM.

  16. #16
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Those are some awesome pictures. I wish some of these nostalgic MP parts would start surfacing again. Surely there are some folks still sitting on them somewhere. Hopefully they dont get scrapped in estate liquidations...

    How much do yall think we are talking for a custom crank? $1500? $2500?

    i would think billet main caps and a main girdle solution would be more important.

    thanks all,
    ~Mark

  17. #17
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    The large stroke MP crank was actually a bit smaller stroke at 3.994" vs. the production 4.09". Never heard of anything beyond 2.5 liter cranks. All motor (RIP) had a supposed 2.7 liter engine (circle track N/A car). Crank was a one off according to him. I remember him telling me it cost more than the whole rest of engine. .060" overbore accounts for about .10 liter in displacement, so his crank was around 4.250" stroke. I know of three people that have 2.0 liter forged cranks. All on the back burner as far as builds. I know of two turbo 2.3 liter Chryslers. One by slight stroke, the other by big overbore. Teaser picture of 2.0 crankshaft.
    Todd
    I have an offset ground crank I had done back around 2001 with a 3.75" stroke. It was supposed to be used with 6" rods and custom pistons. I have the whole set-up, but never put it together.
    Last edited by Reaper1; 10-27-2020 at 01:09 PM. Reason: We aren't in the future 20,000 years! LOL

  18. #18
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goforthz28 View Post
    Those are some awesome pictures. I wish some of these nostalgic MP parts would start surfacing again. Surely there are some folks still sitting on them somewhere. Hopefully they dont get scrapped in estate liquidations...

    How much do yall think we are talking for a custom crank? $1500? $2500?

    i would think billet main caps and a main girdle solution would be more important.

    thanks all,
    ~Mark
    I think custom cranks are going for about $3500 nowadays.

    Billet caps exist.

    Personally, I think deck sealing is more important. Nobody really breaks bottom ends from too much power. There's typically some underlying reason for bottom end failures with these engines, even with "big" power (less than 600), not part design or strength.

  19. #19
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
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    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    The one thing people never have problems with is breaking cranks. I've literally never seen or heard of it from anyone I know.
    Not mine.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/shel...35495396520003




    - - - Updated - - -

    Same post, different owner/car

    Tailgate at your own risk.

  20. #20

    Re: Harmonic Balancers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    I think custom cranks are going for about $3500 nowadays.
    I broke the nose of a cast 2.2 crank. Also As a personal favor Randy Winberg Himself https://winbergcrankshafts.com/ did this crank for me, cost $1750. What I got for that was cryo treatment, nitride hard surface, ground journals, equalized and indexed stroke, shot peened and balanced.
    I did all the sculpting of the counter weights before I shipped it to him. This is a factory forging.....Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	65199 You can get a really nice crank for less than $2000.
    Last edited by Warren Stramer; 10-27-2020 at 04:45 PM.
    best 1/8 ET-6.2 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.73 sec. @144.26mph. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

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