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Thread: More on calculated tables question

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    More on calculated tables question

    The following is a conversation Morris and I have been having, (Morris ok'd reposting here)

    (Me)
    Morris, I'm still not clear about something on these tables (boost control/calculated table/full throttle total timing). I have been reading all of the turbonator documents I downloaded but the meanings are elusive.
    Are the tables a guideline to how much timing I should have at that given PSI and RPM, or are they representing the timing points that I have chosen on the advance from map warm full timing table.
    If they are a guideline how does one look at the timing I have put in the tune and interpolate that to total timing?
    Right now for advance from map warm full, at 18 psi and 4883 rpm, I have that point set at negative 30 degrees and it is still getting audible clicking from the engine in spite of the fact that I have 10:9 to one fuel air as determined by dyno readings taken during a tuning session.

    (Morris)
    The tables are the theoretical timing that the ecu has calculated based on all the other tables.

    for example, the fullthrottletotaltiming table is the final timing calculated based on the following tables: govner, wotmap/hotmap, mapmul, rpmlmt, spklmt

    govner= advance by rpm (9 to 30 deg)
    wotmap=advance by map (15 to -6.5 deg)
    mapmul=multiplier by rpm (1 to 1.75)
    rpmlmt = minimum advance by rpm (15 deg)
    spklmt = maximum advance by rpm (53 deg)

    so using 3000 rpm and -5 psi.
    govner ~ 13 deg
    wotmap ~ 11 deg (since above 0 mapmul not used)
    total calc = 24
    since min=15 and max = 53 then ecu will set total timing to 24 deg.

    so for each table a matrix is set up for each advance point. then, if i recall correctly, the govner point and wotmap point are added together (with map advance modified by the multiplier if < 0) and that point value is limited by rpmlimit on the bottom and spklmt at the top.

    the calculated table reports these values based on a given interval - 500 for rpm and 1 degree i think for map. the intervals are purely arbitrary for display purposes. in actuality the ecu looks at each table to the most accurate degree possible.

    hope this helps somewhat. i believe not matter how much timing is pulled in the wotmap table, it will never go below 15 degrees unless the rpmlmt table is reduced.

    (Me)
    Because of the timing information in this last sentence, I wondered how to reduce my timing below 15 degree's total. I also looked for all of the abbreviations that he referred to and could not find them in normal timing in my MPTune calibration. Can anyone help?
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

  2. #2
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    jeff, to find the "chrysler" short names noted above press f3 when you are in the tree list of tables.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    also, since our discussion i found a thread where 1) initially (2010ish) the rpmlmt is as noted above, then 2) in 2011 it appears to be a max advance amount as well as when it is applied, and then 3) a thread in 2016 where it again represented a minimum advance value!! so now i am confused.....

    you can start reading here!! http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?45009-MPTuner&p=862311&viewfull=1#post862311

    and here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...l=1#post869536

    and here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1109022
    Last edited by wowzer; 11-11-2019 at 06:19 PM.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Morris, this answers my initial question. (the calculated table reports these values based on a given interval - 500 for rpm and 1 degree i think for map. the intervals are purely arbitrary for display purposes. in actuality the ecu looks at each table to the most accurate degree possible.) Beyond being general info it really doesnt seem to impart hard info that you can use to tune with.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    beginning to study the links now. Thank you!
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    When I try that, F3 just turns on a slide bar for screen light intensity, same for F2. Is this because I have windows 10? Itried it with just the over all list and then with normal spark expanded. same-o same-o
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    When I try that, F3 just turns on a slide bar for screen light intensity, same for F2. Is this because I have windows 10? Itried it with just the over all list and then with normal spark expanded. same-o same-o
    Your laptop probably requires you to hit the Function "FN" key to actually use the F keys as opposed to them performing device changes.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    EaZyE426, Yes sir, that worked. Thank you very much. Apologies for taking so long to try it.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Jeff, I printed out the code and had a first run at flowcharting it out. Need a couple more run through a to make sure I have it correct. I'll let you know.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Thanks Morris, I'll keep an eye peeled.
    Jeff
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    jeff, i have the routine pretty much flow charted out. however, i need some real data to confirm the logic. preferably, i would like a few mpscan logs using a smec turbonator cal at varying levels of rpm and boost, preferably a part throttle and full throttle pull as well as a typical daily drive log. the following ram addresses need to be logged:
    BitFlags_AIS
    BitFlags_45
    BitFlags_4F
    BitFlags_50
    BitFlags_54
    AdaptiveRetardIndex
    EngineRPM_HB
    CoolantTemp
    MapValue
    Timer_OpenLoopFraction
    NO2Retard
    CalculatedSparkAdvance
    Temp0
    Temp1
    Timer_CountdownFromStartRunForAISFeedback

    i know that's alot of ram locations but those are all the inputs that are looked at and compared against the various tables to get to the calculated spark advance. i'm thinking maybe you have an LM which i have not looked at currently. hopefully someone is able to do this. thx.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Wowzer, you are correct, I have an LM. Weather here is probably similar to where you are. Someone from a warmer state would have to do this.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    i ran the timing stuff through my smecstim and can confirm that the calculated table is wrong (as well as running scenarios through the code itself). timing should be able to drop to 0 vs 15 deg limit. the routine is pretty involved once you get into the higher boost areas. don't know if the calculated table logic can address all the logic branches. i need to keep working on the flow. the timing above 15 degrees appears to be accurate. once you get into boost at the lower rpms the timing should be close to 0 and ramp back up to around 18 degrees at high boost/rpm. not sure when i can work on the LM side. sorry.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Morris, if you want some logs from a LM, not SMEC, turbonator cal I may able to do it this Saturday.

    Jeff Chojnacki
    '87 LeBaron 2.2 T2 Auto
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    no hurry jeff, i need to finalize the smec stuff first. i'll let ya know when i get to that point. it'll be a while :-).
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    i ran the timing stuff through my smecstim and can confirm that the calculated table is wrong (as well as running scenarios through the code itself). timing should be able to drop to 0 vs 15 deg limit. the routine is pretty involved once you get into the higher boost areas. don't know if the calculated table logic can address all the logic branches. i need to keep working on the flow. the timing above 15 degrees appears to be accurate. once you get into boost at the lower rpms the timing should be close to 0 and ramp back up to around 18 degrees at high boost/rpm. not sure when i can work on the LM side. sorry.
    Regardless. That is very interesting. Thank you for your work Morris. Hopefully you might be able to look at LM's sometime this winter.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Today the temp rose to 50 degree's and the road dried up so I went out and did something I've been wanting to do, I hooked up my OTC 4000E and observed what my electronic advance was doing. At 18 psi it was showing "00" degree's. However at what rpm and boost it reached that point I can't say. I could only get a quick glance while doing this test by myself. Apparently the OTC cannot report negative numbers. anyone else have an observation? I also recently tested rpm's at 500 rpm intervals starting at 1100. At 5500 using part throttle I showed 28 degree's.
    I have no idea how this might relate to this discussion but I wanted to share it anyway.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    ok, here's the executive summary!!

    depending on coolant temp as compared to TMPSWP, the computer will use the advance value from either WOTMAP/HOTMAP or CLDMAP. for this i'm going to skip the cold side of things as well as assume we are not idling. (if coolant temp > TMPSWP and the vehicle is idling then map advance is basically set to a range from PNIDLE to 0.)

    the computer first gets the WOTMAP value and runs it through the routine below. if not at full throttle then the computer also runs the HOTMAP value (plus the value from the ADVCLS table value) through the routine below and uses the smaller of the two calculated values.

    then the map advance is compared to RPMLMT (which is the max positive allowed which is usually set to 15 degrees) and the smaller value is used. so, in effect the advance based on map can range from -64 deg to 15 deg.

    Now mechanical advance is looked at. the ecu gets the advance from the GOVNER table. if map > ARMPIC (basically 0), then advance is reduced by ARRPM value (or a fraction thereof based on the AdaptiveRetardIndex value). if advance is < 0 then advance is set to 0, else the adjusted advance is used. this is then the advance based on rpm and can range in theory from 0 to 64 degrees.

    Finally, the two calculated advance values (from map and from rpm) are added together. if the result is < 0 then 0 is the final calculated advance. if the result > SPKLMT (currently about 53 deg) then advance is set to SPKLMT. otherwise the result is your calculated advance.

    this is the routine that is run for all 3 map advance tables as required:
    if map is > then ARMPIC (basically 0 psi), then advance is reduced by ARMAP value (or a fraction thereof based on the AdaptiveRetardIndex value). Then, if advance is >=0 that value is returned. otherwise, the negative advance is multiplied by MAPMUL (or a fraction thereof). this multiplier can range from 0 to 4. this modified advance is then returned.

    so, the calculated tables are wrong in mptune currently. i'll do an update as soon as i get a chance. i may add the advance calculated when cold also as a calculated table. there are some other twists if the car is idling but that's for another post.
    Last edited by wowzer; 11-23-2019 at 03:19 AM.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
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  19. #19
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    Wow...it seems like that could be done much more efficiently. I'm sure the hardware and required coding language are the limitations.

  20. #20
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    Re: More on calculated tables question

    now the cold side:

    if coolant temp < TMPSWP then get advance from CLDMAP table and run it through the same sub routine as above. if not at idle then that is the map advance limited at the top by RMPLMT and you jump to figuring the mechanical advance as detailed above.

    if at idle, then map advance is the CLDMAP advance limited at the top by CLDLMT. Then if not in gear, you add the value from the PNIDLE table to the advance and that value is limited again at the top by RPMLMT and you jump to figuring the mechanical advance.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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