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Thread: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

  1. #1
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    I had purchased a (supposedly) SRT4 head with a proper SRT4 exhaust manifold with the built in turbo. The guy I bought it from told me the intake was from a Cirrus. The problem right now is trying to determine what the head and cams actually are from and what needs to be done as far as using it.

    Short block is a 1989 2.5L TI from a Lebaron coupe so it is a common block, and has the casting with the front side oil return provision (unmachined of course.

    I have not been able to find a number on the actual head that corresponds to any 2.0/2.4L heads. Cam cover has "Dodge 2.4L DOHC" cast on it. Cams are also an unknown, they have a green stripe on them and intake has L-6 and what appears to be 279, exhaust has L-4 and 285.

    I do have a 1991 TIII SBEC, but do not have the flywheel for it and if someone has the information, what and where as to location the "triggers" for the sensor are. By location I need where in relation to the piston positions the triggers are. The cam sensor I do have a good one from another DOHC engine that matches the broken one that was on the intake cam end (front left) of the head, I also grabbed the knock sensor.

    The stuff came with a pair of FWD cam gears and a NAPA belt, but when I mocked everything up, the idler will not fit in the normal location, it will only fit where the lower rear mount stud would be. The right side mount and the water outlet passage on the head have an interference issue, so I assume the mount needs to be modified.

    The reason the guy sold it to me, he couldn't get it sealed "even with two head gaskets" What head gasket is needed to work on this combination, and what is done for head alignment as the two systems are completely different. I know about the oil drains, that had been done, not well from what I could see.

    Thanks for any information and help.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    The head casting and camshafts for 2003 up are the same for turbo and non-turbo. Turbo heads had special exhaust valves and no EGR. Non-turbo heads had the EGR drilled but can be blocked off.

    Pictures would help greatly at identifying the intake manifold.

    When he said the head wouldn't seal, what block was he trying to seal it to?
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Are there 8 exhaust studs or 10? Is the cam cover plastic or aluminum?

    If I remember correctly, the non-turbo 2.4L cams have the same profiles as the turbo cams. I'm not sure why they would have two different part numbers.

    The runners on a Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze intake are quite long, so if you have photos, it will be easy to tell.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

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    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Ok, I will try to get some manifold pictures.

    8 exhaust studs, does have the EGR provision and a home made block off plate. Cam cover is aluminum.

    He was trying to use it on a 2.2L block, year unknown, but probably no newer than 1988.

    I got the PNs for the 2.0L, 2.4L and turbo 2.4L hoping that the cams might have the last 3 of the PN cast into them.

    The intake that came with it is quite long and the throttle body is essentially the same as the TII and TI blow through, just mounts with the inlet pointing up. I picked up one of the plastic intakes that come up over the cam cover, but the IAC on that TB looks like a Ford duty cycle one or real early Chrysler (two pins only).

  5. #5
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Everything you said sounds like it was lifted straight out of a 1st gen cloud car. Unfortunately, none of it is SRT spec since they didn't exist back then. It's not the end of the world performance-wise. I've got over 60k hard miles on virtually the same top end with no issues (full 2.4L in my case, not a hybrid). I'm assuming the stock valves are still in the head you bought. I've seen 1600F EGTs on my stock valves and haven't burned up anything. The SRT-4 "turbo-fold" ports don't line up absolutely perfectly with the 1st gen exhaust ports, but it will work.

    Stock vs stock, the 1st gen heads don't flow quite as well as the 2nd gen/SRT heads, but it's a big jump from a 2.2/2.5 head.

    I seem to remember coming across a comprehensive guide to the 2.4L years ago, loaded with part numbers. I'll check on my laptop tonight and if I find it, I'll get it to you.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  6. #6
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Here are the pictures as requested:


    The Cirrus manifold came with it and had been played with, there is a hole drilled and tapped just behind (as installed) the thermostat location, there might be 2 threads since the casting is so thin. The PT Cruiser one I snagged at PnP Virginia Beach. Both manifolds had fuel rails and injectors. The PT Cruiser one would need an adapter to use a 4 wire AIS throttle body.

    On the parts, I had run a breakdown trying to see what I have and ran PNs from 1996-2005 on 2.0L and 2.4L engines in an Excel spreadsheet.
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  7. #7
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Quote Originally Posted by 85lebaront2 View Post
    The stuff came with a pair of FWD cam gears and a NAPA belt, but when I mocked everything up, the idler will not fit in the normal location, it will only fit where the lower rear mount stud would be. The right side mount and the water outlet passage on the head have an interference issue, so I assume the mount needs to be modified.

    The reason the guy sold it to me, he couldn't get it sealed "even with two head gaskets" What head gasket is needed to work on this combination, and what is done for head alignment as the two systems are completely different. I know about the oil drains, that had been done, not well from what I could see.

    Thanks for any information and help.
    i thought there was a nissan v6 belt that was to be used. wasnt there also 2 different diameter tensioners? for tall deck 2.5s and stuff like that?

    sealing... pull the head. did he block off the holes in the head and block to keep it sealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by 85lebaront2 View Post
    Ok, I will try to get some manifold pictures.

    8 exhaust studs, does have the EGR provision and a home made block off plate. Cam cover is aluminum.

    He was trying to use it on a 2.2L block, year unknown, but probably no newer than 1988.

    I got the PNs for the 2.0L, 2.4L and turbo 2.4L hoping that the cams might have the last 3 of the PN cast into them.

    The intake that came with it is quite long and the throttle body is essentially the same as the TII and TI blow through, just mounts with the inlet pointing up. I picked up one of the plastic intakes that come up over the cam cover, but the IAC on that TB looks like a Ford duty cycle one or real early Chrysler (two pins only).
    Quote Originally Posted by 85lebaront2 View Post
    Here are the pictures as requested:


    The Cirrus manifold came with it and had been played with, there is a hole drilled and tapped just behind (as installed) the thermostat location, there might be 2 threads since the casting is so thin. The PT Cruiser one I snagged at PnP Virginia Beach. Both manifolds had fuel rails and injectors. The PT Cruiser one would need an adapter to use a 4 wire AIS throttle body.

    On the parts, I had run a breakdown trying to see what I have and ran PNs from 1996-2005 on 2.0L and 2.4L engines in an Excel spreadsheet.
    see if you can find a 95-99 neon dohc 2.0l aluminum intake manifold. shorter runners and you can make a spacer to space the intake plenum to make more volume as well.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  8. #8
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    i thought there was a nissan v6 belt that was to be used. wasnt there also 2 different diameter tensioners? for tall deck 2.5s and stuff like that?

    sealing... pull the head. did he block off the holes in the head and block to keep it sealed?





    see if you can find a 95-99 neon dohc 2.0l aluminum intake manifold. shorter runners and you can make a spacer to space the intake plenum to make more volume as well.

    Brian
    He had home made plugs in the oil return holes in the head, the block is mine, so no plugs currently installed. I will look for the Neon intake, probably some time later this year when I go over to Newport News to pick up my Snap-On "Big Bertha" tool box. I have reasonable free picking rights at the biggest junkyard over there. Still would like to know:
    (a) what HG to use
    (b) what needs to be done on the right motor mount
    (c) is there a head alignment hollow dowel that can be used on this
    (d) does it take a special piston or will my 1989 turbo ones work
    (e) any ideas on being able to adapt my nice 1989 T2 Garrett to this head
    (f) back to one of my original questions, electronics pickup and triggers for crank and cam

    Thanks!

  9. #9
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Quote Originally Posted by 85lebaront2 View Post
    He had home made plugs in the oil return holes in the head, the block is mine, so no plugs currently installed. I will look for the Neon intake, probably some time later this year when I go over to Newport News to pick up my Snap-On "Big Bertha" tool box. I have reasonable free picking rights at the biggest junkyard over there. Still would like to know:
    (a) what HG to use
    (b) what needs to be done on the right motor mount
    (c) is there a head alignment hollow dowel that can be used on this
    (d) does it take a special piston or will my 1989 turbo ones work
    (e) any ideas on being able to adapt my nice 1989 T2 Garrett to this head
    (f) back to one of my original questions, electronics pickup and triggers for crank and cam

    Thanks!
    a. neon mls.
    b. trim the mount so it sits flush to the block.
    c. youd have to get the neon/cloud car dowel pins machined into your block. they go around the head bolts. i wouldnt machine the head for the 2.2/2.5 dowel pins.... many a 2.2/2.5 cyl head has had its nice smooth surface banged up from those stupid dowel pins.
    d. you can use the 2.5 piston i believe but im not sure how much power those stock pistons can handle. id use forged pistons. you will also have to check to see if there is any interference between valves and the pistons with it all timed correctly. rotate slowly. perhaps put some clay on the pistons to see how much clearance there is.
    e. 89 t2 garret is going to be too small. any real power level is going to overspeed this turbo. your boost will probably fall off in the upper rev range.
    f. if you really want to use the t3 cam and crank sensors, you need a spirit r/t 568 as it has a hole for the sensor in the bellhousing and you need the flywheel for the R/T as it has notches cut in it to be a crank trigger. any pressure plate needs to have its clearance checked to make sure it doesnt interfere with these notches. the cam sensor reads one of the cam gears. you would have to replicate this on one of the 2.4 cam gears or make an adapter to bolt a trigger that mimics the t3 cam gear to the other end of the cam with a bracket to hold a cam sensor in the right location.

    or you can buy an adapter from rbryant to bolt a distributor to the 2.4 cam where the stock 2.4 cam sensor goes and then modify a distributor trigger a bit and run an 8v ecu.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  10. #10
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Ok, I have the SRT4 exhaust manifold and built in turbo, so would I be better off using that one? I also managed to get a 1991 TIII SBEC which was why I was looking at using the TIII system, The car is a 1986 Lebaron convertible (K-body) which currently has a 1988 TII long block (one of the left over service blocks). One of the issues, the convertibles, to my knowledge, were never built with a 5 speed and due to the body reinforcements it is a major PITA to put the 5 speed shifter and cables in. I had a friend who did and it took him nearly a month to get it right. I also do not really like cable shift manual transmissions, the L-body stuff is much more precise feeling.

    I don't plan on racing it, it is just so much fun to see the look on a ricer's face when his "stanced" Honduh gets left in the dust by a K-car. Maybe with a front intake the head mounted distributor wouldn't be in the way of the air piping. I currently have the 1990 up air filter system to get rid of the oil injection of the earlier system (I'm still getting oil out of my intercooler). I was planning using the 2.0/2.4L coil on the top of the head.

    Intake, you said 95-99 DOHC Neon aluminum intake, so I guess I will need to start prowling junkyards for that.

    The stuff came with what appear to be ARP studs and 12 point nuts with washers, I was thinking of getting a pair of short sleeves that will go over the studs where the dowels go since short of pulling a head and snagging them they do not seem to be available.

  11. #11
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    The benefit of the SRT turbo is that it's a nice compact bolt-in package. I'm no welder, so it was an attractive option for me. It will work with the older 2.4L head. There's a perfect spot between the #3 and #4 runners for an EGT probe. The biggest drawback that I've run into is that with the SRT turbo, the charge pipe is routed exactly where the bobble strut goes, so you'll either need to figure out different intercooler piping, or find another way to brace the engine. I've also seen people re-clock the compressor housing, but then the stock wastegate actuator won't line up.

    The 1st gen Neon DOHC intake is also what I've been using. That will bolt up perfectly since the DOHC 2.0L used the same head as the 2.4L.

    Do you have access to a machine shop? The alignment sleeve solution you mention would probably work. If you can get me dimensions, I could whip up something if you need.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

  12. #12
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    There is no bobble strut on a K-car that I have seen, and my 1989 J car K member does not have a provision for one, the J-body turbo convertible I worked on had a batch of small shock absorbers at different locations, but not a fixed bobble strut.

    As for a machine shop, not a good one here, there is one and if I can give him a good drawing he can probably make me a pair. Might be an idea though, I have some preliminary measurements, Studs are 9.3mm OD, holes in head measure 14.9mm ID, so I need to get you depth and if they will need clearance for threads to go over. I think there is possibly one thread exposed so maybe internal threads for the M11 head bolt thread would positively align the head and gasket. I was looking for a solution that doesn't require counter boring the top of the block.

    I don't suppose you know what the difference in flow characteristics there are between the first gen Neon and the plastic PT Cruiser intake might be.

  13. #13
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Make something like this but without the bolts or bolt holes.


    Inside diameter the stud shaft dimension.... Not the threads but the smooth part.

    Outside diameter the dowel hole in the head.

    Make it so it fits snug on the stud when it slides into the dowel hole.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #14
    turbo addict
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    REDO ,

    if you need a spacer , what about something pre existing like the alignment dowels at the block to bellhousing

    surely they are made by sizes like bearings and bolts

    ignore attachment - I was previously self confused..don't ask lol
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  15. #15
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Studs are reduced diameter from the block threads. I will pull one back out and get some good measurements on it. I also think there is a bit of thread protruding out of the block. I thought about hollow dowels, but the ones for the transaxle might be too big (bolts are 12mm OD).

    I didn't see any of this till now, internet went out at 11:13 AM yesterday and wasn't back until this morning.

    I was going to try a mockup with the manifolds I have and a distributor in the block. The stuff came with a set of wires to use a stock distributor location.

  16. #16
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Ok, no pictures, but, with the aluminum Cirrus/Stratus intake, the plenum hits the oil filter. Only easy solution would be a remote oil filter, stock distributor location will fit, and I think the cap might be removable with the manifold in place. Plastic intake must have come from an SOHC 2.0L as the bolt holes are completely wrong.

    If I use a distributor, I do have a nice long set of wires that came with the rest, but, is it possible to use it as a crank/cam sensor, or use a TBI HEP and distributor body to only provide a crank signal and get the cam signal off the intake cam in order to use the TIII SBEC and a 2.0/2.4L double coil? This would also provide the "fail safe" in the event of intermediate shaft gear failure. My concern using the distributor is with an aluminum manifold, the wires are going to be sitting against the runners and the possibility of arcing to ground worries me.

  17. #17
    turbo addict
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    I ment dowels , like, the trans ones , not necessarily they in particular
    https://www.google.com/search?q=holl...ih=413&dpr=1.5

  18. #18
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    Would an aluminum intake from a 2.4L minivan work?

  19. #19
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    The one that goes up over top of the head from the pictures in the parts fiches? I doubt it will clear as the older 2.5L minivan air filters wouldn't. I'm not even sure if I can find the correct DOHC design if it won't be too tall over the head. I know these have been done, but most I have seen appear to be race vehicles, so not much in the way of engine driven accessories. It looks like the ZF power steering pump will work, but I seriously doubt a Saginaw will go back there, it's bad enough on an 8 valve with two piece intake, pump pretty well has to be removed from below.

    I think next time I am over in Newport News VA at Pete's I will be looking hard at anything with a 2.0/2.4L DOHC engine for ideas.

  20. #20
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor jonnymopar's Avatar
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    Re: Hybrid 2.5L TIII build

    I can't comment on hybrid builds nor the exact dimensions of the K body engine bay, but regarding the intake, the Neon DOHC intake takes up a lot less room than the others. I doubt that the PT Cruiser or minivan intakes would clear the hood line. I couldn't use the cloud car intake in my Daytona without moving my radiator forward significantly. A slim aftermarket radiator fan was all I needed to get the Neon intake to work. The only thing I don't know is whether it clears the 2.2/2.5L distributor/oil filter without issues.

    The plastic intake manifolds only came on SOHC Neons, so your assumption is correct about the one you have.
    Jon J.

    1989 Daytona ES 2.4L DOHC
    2003 Neon SXT - gone but never forgotten

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is!

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