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Thread: The Chargers quest for 9's

  1. #1
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    The Chargers quest for 9's

    Wasn't going to start this for a couple weeks yet, but since it's already been brought up in another thread, and in an effort to keep that thread clear of My own goal oriented stuff.......here goes nothing!

    When I set out to put the Charger into the 10's several years ago, it didn't seem that daunting of a task. Even though I was purposely limiting myself by laying down some ground rules and believing it could be done on the stock turbo roller cam and ported stock turbo exhaust mani in a street legal full bodied S/C.

    When I finally acheived that goal a couple years ago, it was a huge relief. Not so much because I was able to do it without compromising my own guidlines, but because of the built up anxiety in those around me, brought on by the very limitations that those guidlines demanded.

    So, no surprise that I wanted to just take it easy for a couple years and see what may, or may not be next. (That and I had a ton of other family stuff and personal matters that took a lot of my time)

    Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. I'm working in the shop, staring at the Charger thinking how easily it has done what it's done. (don't tell my bro I said this or he'd kill me!) I'm not weighing the time here, I'm talking strictly of the task and what needed doing to acheive it.

    The first couple years we were simply handcuffed by the larger inj's and being rich down low and not having the means to adjust fast enough (this proved to be very frustrating for several members of my "Team" because they prob thought, after we sailed into the mid 11's on an even simpler build, that the same thing was going to happen here. Rob says 10's are the goal, should be no problem! lol)

    It's funny looking back, that the Charger has done so well, and gotten Better the faster we've gone has ment everything to me, but to Brent it has only ment that I haven't driven it hard enough.....yet!

    Now, that may be true, but either way, I'm sitting in my shop, staring at a car that I NEVER would have even concidered thinking about 9's with, and I'm thinking about it!

    So, before I divulge what my limitations are going to be this time, (I'm sure most of you can guess them) I want to here from the peanut gallery. One person has already made a list of what they think needs doing. (which was hilarious considering the timing of all this!)

    Is it possible, and if so, what do You think I'm going to have to do (and possibly "give up") to get there?

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  2. #2
    Banned Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    well if you want the easier answer, your going to need another 8 more valves lol

    but yeah..
    equal length tubular header....or the TU cast manny for the stockish look...

    your still running the internal gate right? external for sure!! help dump some of that exhaust. id think a nice mandrel 3" to 4" downpipe like the one ATP has would be nice too

    upgrade your head to big valve status...

    honestly it shouldnt take much. youve got the mph to get ya down deep into the 10s....

  3. #3
    Garrett booster
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Tube header, 10 pt cage, and convert to AWD

    /thread

  4. #4

    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Proper tubular header,better head,intake and cam, bigger turbo, must weigh no more than 2300lbs.
    The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  5. #5
    turbo addict
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    I dont know why your making more work for yourself.......just turn the boost up!

  6. #6
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor rx2mazda's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    subscribed.
    Carroll

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  7. #7
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy View Post
    well if you want the easier answer, your going to need another 8 more valves lol
    Not an option!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreel View Post
    convert to AWD
    /thread
    Not an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.
    Ah Ha! Recognition of one of my first limitations, the car must remain street legal/street drivable!

    Quote Originally Posted by forcedfedmopar View Post
    I dont know why your making more work for yourself.......just turn the boost up!
    Well, that's been the plan, but I haven't got the chance....yet. I'm thinking IF I can make the appropriate changes and get deep enough into the tens, on relatively low boost (below 35psi) then I can crank it up and hope it's enough!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  8. #8
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    My 2 cents, FWIW-

    Loose a bit of weight
    Better head
    Equal length TS header
    Big turbo with a TS turbine housing.
    Keep that cam for now to see how it works, then change later.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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  9. #9
    See me ride out of the sunset... Turbo Mopar Staff BadAssPerformance's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Proper tubular header,better head,intake and cam, bigger turbo, must weigh no more than 2300lbs.
    The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.
    Word

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  10. #10
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Not an option!



    Not an option.



    Ah Ha! Recognition of one of my first limitations, the car must remain street legal/street drivable!



    Well, that's been the plan, but I haven't got the chance....yet. I'm thinking IF I can make the appropriate changes and get deep enough into the tens, on relatively low boost (below 35psi) then I can crank it up and hope it's enough!
    Actually thought about this a bit and "not an option" turns out to be the same as "limitation"! lol

    This is also what I found so funny (good way) about the Pope's comment on the other thread. He (Rob) Assumed I would keep the car streetable, that I would stay 8v, stay MTX, not run No2 ect. and he was right!

    For a matter of fact, everything he listed were things that I Would and Could consider doing. Go figure!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  11. #11
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    bigger turbo
    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    My 2 cents, FWIW
    Big turbo with a TS turbine housing.
    This Could turn out to be an interesting part of the equation. I believe the HE351 can get the job done, as I'm believing it can be done on 600WHP and I'm sure that turbo can support that kind of power. (not to say there aren't other turbo's out there more capable)

    Bigger Q is Can the mtr take it? AND will it happen on the ported exhaust mani? (I know that would piss some ppl off to see me do that, don't know why though? )

    I'll tackle the 2nd of those 2 Q's right now. While I'm Not saying the stock mani can't do it (for a matter of fact, I'm already sure it can) I'm Not holding that as a limit to my build/quest like I did to run 10's.

    A proper header at this point could be worth 30-40WHP and I'm going to need
    big gains from things like that If this is going to work!

    Another big plus from a header is that it would allow me to make more power Through the HE351!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  12. #12
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    This Could turn out to be an interesting part of the equation. I believe the HE351 can get the job done, as I'm believing it can be done on 600WHP and I'm sure that turbo can support that kind of power. (not to say there aren't other turbo's out there more capable)

    Bigger Q is Can the mtr take it? AND will it happen on the ported exhaust mani? (I know that would piss some ppl off to see me do that, don't know why though? )

    I'll tackle the 2nd of those 2 Q's right now. While I'm Not saying the stock mani can't do it (for a matter of fact, I'm already sure it can) I'm Not holding that as a limit to my build/quest like I did to run 10's.

    A proper header at this point could be worth 30-40WHP and I'm going to need
    big gains from things like that If this is going to work!

    Another big plus from a header is that it would allow me to make more power Through the HE351!
    Would be cool to see the motor explode!

    I don't think anyone on here would hate to see the ex manifold do it, but the real question I think is, how much is it holding you back?

    Would be cool for sure if the Holset got you into the 9's, I don't think it can,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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  13. #13
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    rub the engine with cheetah blood

  14. #14
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Would be cool to see the motor explode!

    I don't think anyone on here would hate to see the ex manifold do it, but the real question I think is, how much is it holding you back?

    Would be cool for sure if the Holset got you into the 9's, I don't think it can,
    Agreed, except for the exploding part! True, the mtr owes me nothing x 10, but I'd love to see it go 550+WHP before it goes!

    The exhaust mani is at an optimal 1:1 ratio right now @ 35psi (or pretty darn close) IF I increase efficience in front of it, I would think that # would go up. I could clip the wheel (it's a close config wheel, not open like a staged wheel) and get some more efficiency out of it, we'll have to see.

    Funny part of this is everyone thought I was more like 2.5:1 ratio before I checked it. Now if I would have been that high, everyone would be looking to a header to bring me closer to 1:1, where I am now! lol

    I'd love to do a back to back header comparo as well, so there's that.

    Wether or not the Holset can do it, prob has everything to do with the weight I need to get rid of and maybe the addition of the header. (amoungst other things)

    Warren hit the nail on the head, I need to loose 200lbs and that's including the fact that I'm going to have to add weight by finishing my cage.

    Bonus is, I haven't done anything to drop weight other than a couple simple things like no carpet underlay. So I'm thinking 200lb and streetable is doable.

    Non-bonus, I never thought of using this car for 9's because of how it was originally put together. 3 heavy coats of undercoating under the whole floor + sound deadening on the inside of all the floor pans.

    Prob 20-30lbs I won't be able to recover cause I'm not about to scrape it all off!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  15. #15
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Maybe a CF hatch and hood? Tubular K member?

    Again, interesting on the turbine. So, is 1:1 ideal or do we want a different number? Where are you testing it? I wouldn't mine testing mine some day, I have a fitting already in the turbine housing.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  16. #16
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    you can make it happen for sure , btw those he351 hold a lot of hp on turbo diesel close to 600 hp , the dads he341 is almost at 450 whp and still at 30 psi . great job so far and man that underhood still looking stock !

  17. #17
    boostaholic
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Excuse my stupidity but was does this 1:1 ratio in the ex. mani refer too ? Does it mean something like no restriction what so ever ?

  18. #18
    turbo addict
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    1lb of exhaust back pressure for 1lb of boost in the intake IIRC

  19. #19
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    Giver Rob. I'm curious to see where these HE351s will go. I think we are at pretty similar power levels right now with them and I would like to see how far they can be pushed. I know we will both be trying next year. This year I tried addding a few more pounders and I didn't see any results. This could be the turbo running out of breath or it could be other things. I think the head may be lifting a tad since I was blowing coolant near the end with the high RPM and 24-25psi. That could definately cause it not to respond so I will be looking into that.

    I have "heard" that they will support 65lbs like you mentioned but I couldn't give you a good source to back that up. Most maps are scetchy at best and I have yet to see a definative HE351 map. I think it's time to see what these things are really made of. I sure hope it's not out of breath at 500whp since a new snail isn't in the buget for this year.

  20. #20
    turbo addict
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    Re: The Chargers quest for 9's

    The he351 i have on my bench was pushed to 55psi daily for a year and never give any trouble was a only swapped out for compound twins and 100psi

    I would love to see how far you could push the he351!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Start you weight reduction with rotating mass (hubs,wheels,brakes....)

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