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Thread: base timing?

  1. #1
    Mitsu booster
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    base timing?

    Okay so been chasing multitude of problems lately in the van. at this poit have replaced entire fuel system, pump, lines, sending unit, etc. have done timing few times now. (pretty convinced that the thing jumped timing which started the downward spirial) within the last 3-4 weeks and has been throwing me for a loop. Can set timing, crank timing at 0 degrees on bell housing, camshaft sprocket arrows parallel with cam cap parting lines, dizzy slot parallel with block. great, so start it up and let it warm up to operating temperature. no problem, but once you pull the coolant temp sensor, it will hardly stay running, and if it does not stall, its pretty much not possible to set base timing to 12 degrees since its bucking/choking so much. have gone all over all vacuum lines, which is only 3 in total. This setup is a ported swirl head, +40s, walrbo 255, two piece intake, TU log manifold, TU 3" sv and 3" full exhaust and a tranny buster 50 trim t3/t4 hybrid. TRULY do not know what am missing at this point, it was fine earlier this summer. Thought maybe engine was hurt but has 125 psi on all 4 cylinders, and doesn't smoke or burn any oil at all. WOT its in the 12s for AFR, earlier this year was mid 11s or so. Starting to wonder about integrity of the computer itself, if its starting to fail.. Also only codes I have are 33 and 34, which are both irrelevant. Have swapped known good coils, wires, cap, rotor, HEP pickup, etc. Even tried a new wideband sensor to rule that out, since the one was about ten years old. Anyone else ever have an issue with setting base timing? and in MP tune, which section controls the base timing tables? Thanks guys for any input. Trying to get this wrapped up before it gets real cold out.

  2. #2
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    When you set the cam timing, the little hole in the cam was facing up correct? I've made that mistake before.

    Have you tried advancing the dist. in order to keep the car running? I've certainly had to do that.

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    Do you have a turbonator based cal?
    If so, your problem is the DefaultEngineTemp is set too low. Change it to 195F, and be sure to check your timing only after the engine is fully warmed and the fan has cycled.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    I know this is MPScandroid, but the file tree is the same as calls in MPTune:
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  5. #5
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    When you set the cam timing, the little hole in the cam was facing up correct? I've made that mistake before.

    Have you tried advancing the dist. in order to keep the car running? I've certainly had to do that.
    Yeah i tried advancing while it was running poor but itís so bad the timing mark is all over the place. Even set at zero, with CTS plugged in and timing light computer is bringing it to the 18 degree mark even though base is at zero still.

  6. #6
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Yes it is a turbonator based cal, I will go and check out the default setting. Only thing is It wonít let the car get to 195 before the fan cycles, usually comes on twice already by the time it reaches 170-175. I have an auxiliary water temp gauge that once hits 200 I unplugged the sensor but have the same results. I still had a FWD stage 5 cal last time I messed with the timing and didnít really give it a second thought. Wish it were easier to post pics on this site with a phone so I could show it


    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Do you have a turbonator based cal?
    If so, your problem is the DefaultEngineTemp is set too low. Change it to 195F, and be sure to check your timing only after the engine is fully warmed and the fan has cycled.

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    Use Tapatalk for the forum. It makes posting pics super easy from your Android device.

    Try 195 for the default engine temp, and let us know if that fixes it so it can stay running for setting the timing.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  8. #8
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Use Tapatalk for the forum. It makes posting pics super easy from your Android device.

    Try 195 for the default engine temp, and let us know if that fixes it so it can stay running for setting the timing.


    I opened up a base 2.5 ATX map that I had downloaded, Rob M actually created my cal, but on the side tab 'SETTINGS" then AFR settings, where it says injector rating, is THAT why im possibly lacking fuel? I just swapped in a Stock regulator, but its only running about 45 psi with vac plugged in. This is of course for the lean issue.... 12.5+ at WOT on ANY amount of boost is just scary to me...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, saw the minimum temp for the default temp setup, was like 68 degrees, SO does that mean when I unplug the CTS connector it thinks its 68 degrees and adds fuel for 68 degree coolant temps? therefore running it down to 9.0 afr and flooding the motor out?

  9. #9
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 89CaravanFan View Post


    Also, saw the minimum temp for the default temp setup, was like 68 degrees, SO does that mean when I unplug the CTS connector it thinks its 68 degrees and adds fuel for 68 degree coolant temps? therefore running it down to 9.0 afr and flooding the motor out?
    Yes.
    That is why you need to change it to 195.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  10. #10
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Yes.
    That is why you need to change it to 195.
    Changed it to 195, doesn't flood engine out but something is up for sure. Pull CTS and timing light on window car is running at like 18 degrees of timing, in base timing mode. When plugged in the timing on the window drops to around 12, its almost like a switcharoo, cruises fine. has 20 inHg of vacuum at idle. timing must still be wrong.. In other news also broke my NEW ostrich 28 pin ribbon cable by mistake. Didn't realize that they actually include a "socket" meant to be soldered into a SMEC, so I double stacked that one on the one already in there, which made diffuculity closing the SMEC back up with the power board on top. Took it all apart again today and trying to get that undone with a mini screwdriver it came apart very sudden and bent some pins :/

  11. #11
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 89CaravanFan View Post
    Changed it to 195, doesn't flood engine out but something is up for sure. Pull CTS and timing light on window car is running at like 18 degrees of timing, in base timing mode. When plugged in the timing on the window drops to around 12, its almost like a switcharoo, cruises fine. has 20 inHg of vacuum at idle. timing must still be wrong.. In other news also broke my NEW ostrich 28 pin ribbon cable by mistake. Didn't realize that they actually include a "socket" meant to be soldered into a SMEC, so I double stacked that one on the one already in there, which made diffuculity closing the SMEC back up with the power board on top. Took it all apart again today and trying to get that undone with a mini screwdriver it came apart very sudden and bent some pins :/
    if you pull the cts and the timing is 18, then you need to adjust the distributor.

    how do you know its at 18? do you have an advance timing light? i cant see much past 14 on mine i thought with a non advance timing light.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  12. #12
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    if you pull the cts and the timing is 18, then you need to adjust the distributor.

    how do you know its at 18? do you have an advance timing light? i cant see much past 14 on mine i thought with a non advance timing light.

    Brian
    I have a matco tools digital adv timing light. itll pick up anything on the spectrum, including the cam timing. I recently removed the dizzy to verify timing, and put it back in, usually the car in normal operation (before pulling CTS), is running 17-18 degrees. possible timing got tanked but seems it would have more issues, esp vacuum issues

  13. #13
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    it seemed like you were saying that normally its 12 but when you pull the coolant temp sensor, the timing goes to 18..... which would be too much.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #14
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    it seemed like you were saying that normally its 12 but when you pull the coolant temp sensor, the timing goes to 18..... which would be too much.

    Brian
    yes, sorry about that. What I mean is that usually with everything hooked up, and just sitting idling, timing would be around 18, which is below normal. BUT in this case once coolant temp sensor is pulled it finds its way to 18 degrees, and the base timing is supposed 12 degrees, but I did set everything back to zero when I put the dizzy back in. Therefore at BASE timing it should be not far off from the zero.

  15. #15
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: base timing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 89CaravanFan View Post
    yes, sorry about that. What I mean is that usually with everything hooked up, and just sitting idling, timing would be around 18, which is below normal. BUT in this case once coolant temp sensor is pulled it finds its way to 18 degrees, and the base timing is supposed 12 degrees, but I did set everything back to zero when I put the dizzy back in. Therefore at BASE timing it should be not far off from the zero.
    Now admittedly I don't have a FSM. But I have paid attention in the past to Rob Lloyd's posts explaining the misconception of "base timing".

    The procedure you are performing when checking timing with the light, when you have a fully earmed engine while disconnecting the CTS is actually setting the timing reference.
    The "base timing" is set within the ecu calibration.
    You need to perform this again, and set the reference to 12 deg BTDC.
    If you want to adjust your timing, adjust it in the timing tables in your cal.
    This is my understanding of it, but if I'm wrong please someone explain it better to the both of us.

    (You said you checked timing with CTS unplugged and you read 18 deg? That is wrong. Adjust it to 12.)
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  16. #16
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: base timing?

    From Rob's old website FAQ on Ignition tuning
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/kn...BEC-Tuning-FAQ

    Ignition Timing

    Q - How is the total timing calculated? Base timing + AdvancefromRPM + AdvancefromMap?

    A – There is no such thing as ‘base timing’. Total timing is pretty simple – Advance from RPM + Advance from MAP is the basic timing. The advance from MAP can be either the WOT or P/T table depending on TPS position. And, there is a WOT multiplier for the advance from MAP table for when the lookup value from that table is negative. There is also a maximum timing value.


    Q - So I am clear on this.... The timing shown in the cal, and on a Scan Tool, will be the total timing. This number assumes the base timing of 12* (or whatever is called for on the emissions label) is there. So the number shown in a cal is not necessarily the number used in a calculation, correct?

    A - There is no such thing as ‘base timing’. The 12* is just the fixed timing used to set the sync between the distributor and the crank. The reason they chose 12* is simply because an engine generally will not run well @ 0* advance. The 12* is not a 'base' timing at all. It's simply a reference point. It never gets 'added' to anything. All the timing figures in the cal are relative to TDC (0*).

    If the sync is in fact wrong (ie, you set the sync at 14* instead of 12*), then the actual timing will be off by the same amount (2* in this example). But, the ECU will not know about that difference and will not be able to report it to a scan tool.


    Q – What is the ‘AdvanceFromRPMMax’ table for?

    A - It's the max cutoff point for advance. Any calculated advance over that lookup value will use the lookup value instead. For example, if your combined advance is 60* and the Max is 53*, you will get 53*.


    Q – What is the ‘MultiplierOnMAPAdvanceWhenRetarding’ table used for?

    A - ‘MultiplierOnMAPAdvanceWhenRetarding’ basically multiplies the WOT advance from MAP value based on RPM when the WOT advance from MAP is negative. The table is scaled from 0 to 4. This table was used by Chrysler to remove more timing when in boost at higher RPM. It’s the primary reason the WOT MAP advance table appears to have more timing than the P/T table in the T1 cals. In most of the T2 cals, this table is set to a multiplier of 1 (no effect).
    Regards,
    Miles

    DD '87 Sundance T1, 12PSI, SLH with rear disks
    '87 CSX #432

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