Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 64

Thread: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Havertown, PA
    Posts
    9,429

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    My last trip to the track, using ice water as coolant on a 90ish degree day, my charge temp at launch was 60 degrees and rose to 102 degrees over a 10.4 second pass at 26psi of boost. I think it could be better if I wasn't pulling hot underhood air into the compressor.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  2. #22
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Everett, WA
    Posts
    6,358

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    I would like to point out the A.J.'s experience with intake temps with his W/A system to me is odd. I know he went through different iterations and tried different things, but *something* wasn't right. Based on what Warren and I have talked about, I don't think the Frozen Boost cores are all that great. In this case, you very well might be getting what you pay for as after going to a different core Warren has had a better experience.

  3. #23
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tuscola, IL
    Posts
    19,770

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    This thread has all the makings of another ported stocker vs. tubular header battle royal. Those were the days...

  4. #24
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    7,187

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    Are you attributing his problems with water to air setups as a whole? Or incorrectly sized cooler? I've done a lot of reading and people have had good success with water to air setups.
    No idea what A.J.'s issue is. All I am saying is, verify the intercooler setup is working correctly under load, don't just assume because you spend a bunch of money and put it together it will work correctly under load.

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    Normally my setup never got above 120 to 130 under 18 psi boost. I only logged it from the charge temp sensor which I know is very slow to respond but even on long uphill pulls it would stay around 100 degrees or so.

    From 5 years ago -- https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4...e-build-6.html
    I used the open element charge temp sensor, which respond pretty quick. Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-GM-25.../dp/B000ECMZ20

    It always seems strange to me that the longer I stay in boost the colder my charge air temperature. Maybe that just shows how heat soaked my intake manifold really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    My last trip to the track, using ice water as coolant on a 90ish degree day, my charge temp at launch was 60 degrees and rose to 102 degrees over a 10.4 second pass at 26psi of boost. I think it could be better if I wasn't pulling hot underhood air into the compressor.
    Thanks for the data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    I would like to point out the A.J.'s experience with intake temps with his W/A system to me is odd. I know he went through different iterations and tried different things, but *something* wasn't right. Based on what Warren and I have talked about, I don't think the Frozen Boost cores are all that great. In this case, you very well might be getting what you pay for as after going to a different core Warren has had a better experience.
    Yup, we know it is odd and no, we never figure out what caused it. As I said before, verify the intercooler setup is working correctly under load, don't just assume because you spend a bunch of money and put it together it will work correctly under load.

  5. #25
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    2,083

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    No idea what A.J.'s issue is. All I am saying is, verify the intercooler setup is working correctly under load, don't just assume because you spend a bunch of money and put it together it will work correctly under load.
    Gotcha. I would hope people would be logging IAT's. I moved my air temp sensor from the manifold to the IC pipe thinking it would be more accurate. Most cars I see these days don't put the temp sensor in the manifold. I'm assuming so they don't get heat soaked.

  6. #26
    Garrett booster
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    thornhill ont
    Posts
    127

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Csxtra, thank you for explaining that set up, ith's that first time i've seen that and it intrigued me, so thanks again, very much!!

  7. #27
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,790

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    There is no ac system on the planet that will operate below 32f for very long unless perhaps you live in a place with near-zero humidity. The whole reason why AC systems don't just blow 20* air everywhere is that the condensation collecting onto the evaporator core will freeze and block flow across the evaporator until it becomes an ice cube. Maybe the Arizona residents here could get away with it. For most people, blowing below-freezing air out of your AC vents is only good for putting a short clip on youtube that doesn't mention that the system will stop blowing anything some time after until you turn it off for like 30 minutes. If you could somehow change the operation of the system on the fly so that the evaporator would not drop below freezing until the cabin humidity was below a certain point, that'd be a neat trick honestly.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  8. #28
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    791

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    I would like to point out the A.J.'s experience with intake temps with his W/A system to me is odd. I know he went through different iterations and tried different things, but *something* wasn't right. Based on what Warren and I have talked about, I don't think the Frozen Boost cores are all that great. In this case, you very well might be getting what you pay for as after going to a different core Warren has had a better experience.
    I originally had a Frozenboost Type 3 A/W intercooler in my car and I was logging pressure drop and Intake Air Temps and during a 1/4 mile run I was seeing 4-5 psi pressure drop at 28psi of boost and the Intake Air Temps increased from 94 degrees at the beginning of the run to 138 degrees by the end of the run (44 degree increase), while the water temperatures only increased by 1.6 degrees from 87.4 to 89 degrees over the run. The outside temps were in the upper 40s.

    After seeing those lackluster results, I had the custom A/W IC built using a bigger Bell core, but leaving the rest of the system the same (Meziere pump, Frozenboost type 101 heat exchanger, and a 2.5 gallon reservoir).

    This year on Hot Rod Drag Week, I finally got the tune on the car close enough to run a decent time (12.6 @ 114.8) and had my datalogging setup working correctly. The log for that run showed a max pressure drop of 2.6psi at 34psi of boost, and the Intake Air Temps started at 134 degrees with a heat-soaked intake, dropped to 126 degrees once moving in first, then increased to 141 degrees by the end of the run (15 degree increase), while the water temperatures stayed constant at 116 degrees during the run. The outside temperatures were in the upper 80s/low90s.

    The other interesting thing is that the temperature drop across the intercooler at the end of the run was 281 degrees (max turbo outlet temp was 422 degrees - sucking in hot underhood air).

    After reviewing my logs, I need to do something to reduce the Intercooler water temps before the run to below ambient. I need to put in an insulated water tank and either allow adding ice, or do like RGL10, AJ, and Andrew Kane did and plumb a heat exchanger into my A/C system to pre-cool the intercooler water before a run at the track.

    Quote Originally Posted by errol View Post
    Csxtra, thank you for explaining that set up, ith's that first time i've seen that and it intrigued me, so thanks again, very much!!
    You're welcome errol, thanks for starting a good thread!

    Warren
    Warren Hall
    "My Name is Warren and my car is an alcoholic..."
    OVC - SDAC "Our Sh*t Rolls!"
    Cincinnati, OH
    87 CSX # 741
    317WHP - 380 WFt-Lbs (STD-5)
    12.460 @ 113.2 - Race Gas + Methanol Injection
    12.749 @ 109.84 - 91 octane + Methanol Injection (Still tuning...)
    "Illegitimi non carborundum."
    -General Joseph Stillwell
    TD Runlogger Page Has Moved...

  9. #29
    turbo addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    2,083

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    My question is, is it a problem with frozenboost core design? Or just the size of the core? I was looking at going with the type 5.

  10. #30
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    7,187

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    My question is, is it a problem with frozenboost core design?
    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    I originally had a Frozenboost Type 3 A/W intercooler in my car and I was logging pressure drop and Intake Air Temps and during a 1/4 mile run I was seeing 4-5 psi pressure drop at 28psi of boost and the Intake Air Temps increased from 94 degrees at the beginning of the run to 138 degrees by the end of the run (44 degree increase), while the water temperatures only increased by 1.6 degrees from 87.4 to 89 degrees over the run. The outside temps were in the upper 40s.
    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    I've seen the same below ambient result on A.J.'s van when he is cruising. But as soon as he WOT, the intake air temperature number goes up and up. Looking at his MS logs at the drag strip, you'll see 185F air!
    http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...day%20copy.msl
    A.J. had a frozen boost water to air intercooler core as well.

    Those are solid numbers telling you frozen boost core doesn't cool the boost well, nevermind freezing it.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 10-03-2018 at 02:32 PM.

  11. #31
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,537

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Yeah, I think I've enough evidence of that in the various threads and discussions on it to convince that I need to be looking at upgrading my frozenboost I/C to something better. Worked good for a relatively cheap system on lower boost levels (max I ran was 25 on a spike, final tune was better at 18-20 psi). It's a good upgrade over a stock intercooler without having to figure how to run 2.5" piping around a full-size rad.

    I never had any logging of intake temps, but I know after 3 back-to-back 8th mile runs, it would feel warm to the touch instead of cold like usual, and it would start getting slower. Moving on the street or highway, never had any such issue, it was solidly consistent. That's at anywhere from 18 to 22 psi on a stock Garrett. It did run a 9.24@80mph in the 8th with a horrible 2.32 60ft and 3300# race weight, so it made decent power for a stock 2.5 .

    I'll run it again here shortly on my new TIII setup, but I think I will look into a better core. If I can though, I'll get some kind of datalogger and see what the temps actually are first.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    338

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    There is no ac system on the planet that will operate below 32f for very long unless perhaps you live in a place with near-zero humidity. The whole reason why AC systems don't just blow 20* air everywhere is that the condensation collecting onto the evaporator core will freeze and block flow across the evaporator until it becomes an ice cube. Maybe the Arizona residents here could get away with it. For most people, blowing below-freezing air out of your AC vents is only good for putting a short clip on youtube that doesn't mention that the system will stop blowing anything some time after until you turn it off for like 30 minutes. If you could somehow change the operation of the system on the fly so that the evaporator would not drop below freezing until the cabin humidity was below a certain point, that'd be a neat trick honestly.

    There is one thing you are overlooking with this line of reasoning. The evaporator can freeze solid in my car till there is no airflow coming out the vents but as long as your refrigerant is pure with no moisture inside the lines then refrigerant will still flow. The lines do not freeze inside. The cycling switch will cause the compressor to kick out if there is no heat exchange going on but if you have heat in your water then your low side pressure will still be high enough to keep the compressor on. The H valve will limit the flow of refrigerant if the Freon (Suva) gets cold but the system will always flow some to keep the compressor lubricated. That actually helps the intercooler system as your regular ac is not adding any heat to the Freon. Liquid is coming out of the evaporator instead of gas so the boiling and heat exchange takes place in your water heat exchanger instead of the evaporator. R134a boils at -15 degrees so it is theoretically able to get the water temperature down to that if it has antifreeze in it. I can guarantee the water can get below zero. My exchanger had ice on the outside of it many times. Also you need your intercooler in the heat of summer more than in winter so it is unlikely you can freeze the system unless you are racing on ice covered roads where you don’t need much intercooling anyhow.

  13. #33
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    351

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    There is one thing you are overlooking with this line of reasoning......
    This guy gets it. I'm an engineer for a company that supplies A/C compressors to car companies (being vague on purpose) and we test A/C systems and parts. When I saw your system my first thought was "damn it, he did it first".

    My approach is (or will be) slightly different though. I've been DYING to try one of these puppies on my GLHS:


    They are refrigerant to coolant heat exchangers, with their own expansion valves (TXV). I have a bunch of different sizes, one even bigger than the one on the left. I also have a few refrigerant solenoid valves (normally open or normally closed) to shut off the flow to the evaporator if necessary. They're primarily used to cool batteries in hybrid/electric cars, but their capacity is surprising compared to their size.

    All I need to do is get my GLHS to run for an appreciable amount of time without breaking. Currently putting the engine back together after ALL the valve stem seals popped off.

    Thanks for your contribution to the community!
    Jeff

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    (Suva)
    You just made my heart skip a beat! .....my God the times I've had to choke on my words and take a deep sigh when I hear people talking about the "Freon" in their cars. So few people care about the difference between R-12 and R-134a, or even what a "trade name" is.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1645.jpg 
Views:	163 
Size:	579.0 KB 
ID:	63208  

  14. #34
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    791

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Jeff,

    Thanks for joining the discussion!

    I have been considering using solenoids to switch between the stock expansion valve and evaporator and a separate expansion valve and heat exchanger for cooling the intercooler coolant, so I can either cool the passenger compartment or the intercooler with the A/C system.

    Those units are EXACTLY what I had been looking for, and I had not yet found any solenoids yet. Without exposing your "secret identity" is there a retail source for these TXV/heat exchanger units and the refrigerant solenoids?

    Thanks!

    Warren
    Warren Hall
    "My Name is Warren and my car is an alcoholic..."
    OVC - SDAC "Our Sh*t Rolls!"
    Cincinnati, OH
    87 CSX # 741
    317WHP - 380 WFt-Lbs (STD-5)
    12.460 @ 113.2 - Race Gas + Methanol Injection
    12.749 @ 109.84 - 91 octane + Methanol Injection (Still tuning...)
    "Illegitimi non carborundum."
    -General Joseph Stillwell
    TD Runlogger Page Has Moved...

  15. #35
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Jacksonville
    Posts
    409

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo SOB View Post
    This guy gets it. I'm an engineer for a company that supplies A/C compressors to car companies (being vague on purpose) and we test A/C systems and parts. When I saw your system my first thought was "damn it, he did it first".

    My approach is (or will be) slightly different though. I've been DYING to try one of these puppies on my GLHS:


    They are refrigerant to coolant heat exchangers, with their own expansion valves (TXV). I have a bunch of different sizes, one even bigger than the one on the left. I also have a few refrigerant solenoid valves (normally open or normally closed) to shut off the flow to the evaporator if necessary. They're primarily used to cool batteries in hybrid/electric cars, but their capacity is surprising compared to their size.

    All I need to do is get my GLHS to run for an appreciable amount of time without breaking. Currently putting the engine back together after ALL the valve stem seals popped off.

    Thanks for your contribution to the community!
    Jeff


    You just made my heart skip a beat! .....my God the times I've had to choke on my words and take a deep sigh when I hear people talking about the "Freon" in their cars. So few people care about the difference between R-12 and R-134a, or even what a "trade name" is.

    awesome input. love the hands on tech..
    and yes.. if your water intercooler system using a liquid evap core chilling you can get fluid below freezing..
    The piece you show looks alot like the killer chiller water/evaportator set up.
    https://www.speedlogixstore.com/product-p/kc-hc.htm



    long term plan for the van is a AWIC frozen boost core with larger water holes.. and a killer chiller plumbed in. with a 03-04 cobra heat exchanger and cobalt pump. and 2-4 gallon tank.


    I think one of the main problems with the frozen boost cores is the SMALL water inlets and outlets.. they just cant flow fast enough. the water absorbs the heat and is stuck in the intercooler too long.
    That is why we are seeing INTAKE temps going up. but resiviour and tank water temps not moving. The water is doing its job in .5 a second.. but stuck in the core and low flow for 2-3 seconds..
    Look at the size of the water oulets.. with a fitting on it. maybee 8-9mm holes? you cant move enough water.
    400CFM of air goes through the cooler. and you can barely get 3 gallons a minute through your pipping...



    Now look at the coolant out puts on a precision and bell and holley core.






    I think the main problem with the frozen boost design is SMALL coolant connections. Once I purchase my set up I had planed to have it machined for larger outlets and connections. to get that HOT coolant out faster and get some cold water into the core faster.. should equalize the difference.. if we see +40* of intake temp and only +4* in intercooler liquid temp. its a clear sign we are not utilizing enough of the coolant heat transfer abilities. I want to see my intercooler tank water temps go up 20-30* and the intake temps go up 20-30* as well.

  16. #36
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    351

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    No, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    is there a retail source for these TXV/heat exchanger units and the refrigerant solenoids?
    OK, there's a normally open refrigerant solenoid on the Fiat 500 BEV, and I believe it's the same unit or very similar used on the new plug-in hybrid Pacifica. They're too new to find in the junk yards, but the dealer might be able to get them if you're willing to pay those prices. Older Ford Escape hybrids have a normally closed solenoid.

    The chiller on the left is a prototype unit from a few years ago that is not in production on anything I know of. The Chevy Volt has one that's similar in size to the one on the right. Don't let it's small size fool you, it's quite capable. The first gen Volt unit is bigger.

  17. #37
    Hybrid booster
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Jacksonville
    Posts
    409

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    is there a retail source for these TXV/heat exchanger units and the refrigerant solenoids?

    Thanks!

    Warren
    Crophex makes them.
    http://www.crophex.com/products/brazed-heat-exchangers
    HFM makes them
    https://www.hfm-phe.com/

    and FYI BMW/mercedez and audi are using these devices to cool transmission fluid. and rear diff fluid.

    and Telsa uses them . the Volt has them and spark EV.

    This is some blurbage about them
    https://www.motor.com/newsletters/20...ecrviceQs.html

    and info on them from valeo.
    http://www.valeo.com.cn/en/our-activ...ement-466.html

    teslas unit.
    http://www.teslorean.com/tesla-technology/


    sanhua also makes them.
    http://www.sanhuaautomotive.com/prod...ller-assembly/

    So does Hell/Behr
    https://www.hella.com/techworld/us/T...vehicles-1725/



    becoming more and more popular.. we had something very similar decades ago in fork lifts..
    i think they were hydraulic fluid coolers.

    good stuff.

  18. #38
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor DOHCRT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Phoenix, Az
    Posts
    506

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    AJ ran one of these for a few years in his minivan.


    Vic in Phoenix
    dohcrt@cox.net

    91 Spirit R/T x4
    92 Spirit R/T x2
    89 CSX
    88 CSX-TIII
    84 Rampage TII
    97 Ram (Buzzin Half Dozen)
    69 Dart GT 'Vert

  19. #39
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,790

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    There is one thing you are overlooking with this line of reasoning. The evaporator can freeze solid in my car till there is no airflow coming out the vents but as long as your refrigerant is pure with no moisture inside the lines then refrigerant will still flow.
    Don't get me wrong because i absolutely love your omni and think it's one of the most interesting things i've ever seen in this community, but I live in a state where my cars that don't have AC literally get parked more than half the year. If airflow across the evaporator stops then so will airflow across the outside of the car because... i will park it. But, I acknowledge your use of the principle you stated to achieve a specific thing. I just hate to think people are looking at vids of someone claiming their vents blow below freezing and hoping they can actually hot rod their AC system to achieve that continuously. I'd rather deal with mere 40f discharge temps than wait in the Texas sun for my evaporator to thaw.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  20. #40
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,537

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    I think the main problem with the frozen boost design is SMALL coolant connections. Once I purchase my set up I had planed to have it machined for larger outlets and connections. to get that HOT coolant out faster and get some cold water into the core faster.. should equalize the difference.. if we see +40* of intake temp and only +4* in intercooler liquid temp. its a clear sign we are not utilizing enough of the coolant heat transfer abilities. I want to see my intercooler tank water temps go up 20-30* and the intake temps go up 20-30* as well.
    Maybe, but I had pretty good flow going through mine using 5/8 hose. I had almost thought it was too much flow, like it wasn't staying in the core long enough to absorb the heat. Could be wrong though. Car is almost ready to drive again, so maybe once I get some temp logging equipment I can check temps, then drill out the holes to allow 3/4 or 1" hose and see what it does. I think the exchanger fittings are at least 3/4, IIRC I had to step them down to use 5/8 hose.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Explain please-
    By turbovanman² in forum Board Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-22-2008, 03:27 PM
  2. You TWO, Explain yourselves!
    By minigts in forum General Vendor Area
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-22-2007, 03:36 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •