how'd you get that? That's CSXtra's setup.
Hi Errol, that is an air-to-water intercooler. The air flows from the bottom of the cooler to the top of the cooler, and the cooling water is pumped from the back of the intercooler to the front of the intercooler, where it exits through a heat exchanger (radiator) in front of the car to be cooled, then goes to a tank that feeds the pump again.
The water passing through the intercooler absorbs the heat from the air passing through, cooling the air going into the engine more efficiently than an air-to-air intercooler does...as long as the rest of the system can keep the water temperatures cool, and enough water is flowing through the cooler.
Warren Hall
"My Name is Warren and my car is an alcoholic..."
OVC - SDAC "Our Sh*t Rolls!"
Cincinnati, OH
87 CSX # 741
317WHP - 380 WFt-Lbs (STD-5)
12.460 @ 113.2 - Race Gas + Methanol Injection
12.749 @ 109.84 - 91 octane + Methanol Injection (Still tuning...)"Illegitimi non carborundum."-General Joseph StillwellTD Runlogger Page Has Moved...
The big benefits of water to air is packaging, shorter intake path and if you use ice you can get colder than ambient temps.
Csxtra, thank you for explaining that set up, ith's that first time i've seen that and it intrigued me, so thanks again, very much!!
I originally had a Frozenboost Type 3 A/W intercooler in my car and I was logging pressure drop and Intake Air Temps and during a 1/4 mile run I was seeing 4-5 psi pressure drop at 28psi of boost and the Intake Air Temps increased from 94 degrees at the beginning of the run to 138 degrees by the end of the run (44 degree increase), while the water temperatures only increased by 1.6 degrees from 87.4 to 89 degrees over the run. The outside temps were in the upper 40s.
After seeing those lackluster results, I had the custom A/W IC built using a bigger Bell core, but leaving the rest of the system the same (Meziere pump, Frozenboost type 101 heat exchanger, and a 2.5 gallon reservoir).
This year on Hot Rod Drag Week, I finally got the tune on the car close enough to run a decent time (12.6 @ 114.8) and had my datalogging setup working correctly. The log for that run showed a max pressure drop of 2.6psi at 34psi of boost, and the Intake Air Temps started at 134 degrees with a heat-soaked intake, dropped to 126 degrees once moving in first, then increased to 141 degrees by the end of the run (15 degree increase), while the water temperatures stayed constant at 116 degrees during the run. The outside temperatures were in the upper 80s/low90s.
The other interesting thing is that the temperature drop across the intercooler at the end of the run was 281 degrees (max turbo outlet temp was 422 degrees - sucking in hot underhood air).
After reviewing my logs, I need to do something to reduce the Intercooler water temps before the run to below ambient. I need to put in an insulated water tank and either allow adding ice, or do like RGL10, AJ, and Andrew Kane did and plumb a heat exchanger into my A/C system to pre-cool the intercooler water before a run at the track.
You're welcome errol, thanks for starting a good thread!
Warren
Warren Hall
"My Name is Warren and my car is an alcoholic..."
OVC - SDAC "Our Sh*t Rolls!"
Cincinnati, OH
87 CSX # 741
317WHP - 380 WFt-Lbs (STD-5)
12.460 @ 113.2 - Race Gas + Methanol Injection
12.749 @ 109.84 - 91 octane + Methanol Injection (Still tuning...)"Illegitimi non carborundum."-General Joseph StillwellTD Runlogger Page Has Moved...
I think that is wildly optimistic. Let's put it this way, how long does it take for a little bit of water to became ice in your freezer?
Also, a/c needs to be running for that part of the system to work. Problem is, when WOT, a/c stop running, when idle, intake manifold will get heat soak due to its location.
Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 12:49 AM.
I don't think I've been wildly optimistic in 30 or 40 years lol. I should have said water temperature not air temperature. My system got the water/antifreeze mixture below zero on multiple occasions. Intake air temperature was below ambient at times. I used a reservoir with a few gallons of coolant in it. A/C system runs in hot weather most of the time anyhow so water was freezing cold after a few minutes of engine running. Water pump ran all the time to keep water circulated even when ac compressor cycled off on wot. System worked great on the street but they made me turn off my ac at the track. More detailed info here - https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4...e-build-5.html
I've seen the same below ambient result on A.J.'s van when he is cruising. But as soon as he WOT, the intake air temperature number goes up and up. Looking at his MS logs at the drag strip, you'll see 185F air!
http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...day%20copy.msl
MAT is intake temp
Some water to air intercooler system works well for the designed purpose, ie. run that 1/4 mile with ice bucket dumped into the reservoir. Other system like A.J., at low volume of air, it looks good (idling or cruising) , but as soon as you WOT, the large volume of air overcome the system and you see high intake temperature number. People are too busy look at the road and not notice their crazy high intake air temp, it wasn't until we look at his log we realized something is seriously wrong with his water to air intercooler setup.
We still don't know what was wrong with the setup, he took an easy way out by installing a large air to air intercooler and that solved his crazy high air intake issue.
Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 11:11 AM.
No surprise here at all, in fact I would expect it. I am a gas chromatographer and thermal transfer from Gas to solid to liquid and finally to Gas is my day job. I have mentioned details in the past and got FLAMED. All I will say, is don't expect a free horsepower lunch here. For example, yes the Demon uses the AC to cool the intake but I would guess the AC is shutdown during WOT. The excess heat energy of the intake is removed by the AC prior to going WOT. Even if it was on during WOT, it is unlikely to remove significant heat load but will reduce total engine torque/horsepower during this event as the power requirement of the AC is significant. When your AC is working, the AIS opens to raise RPM and in our cars the A/F drops. Remember, thermal transfer is only effective for turbulent flow(causes higher backpressure) and if the flow is laminar thermal transfer is very poor and relies on diffusion rather than mixing. For fun, perhaps we should run a simple calculation of adiabatic compression to 20PSI at 6000RPM and determine how much HP does it take to cool back to ambient temp. Any volunteers?
I will put on my Asbestos suit to protect me from the any flames that may arise.
Regards,
Miles
DD '87 Sundance T1, SLH with rear disks
'87 CSX #432 2.5 CB TII, SLH
plumbing through the A/C is a known awesome set up. and yes you can get it to freezing. or right above easily.
Look at "killer chillers". you want 34* water temps in your IC system?. get one.
- - - Updated - - -
https://killerchiller.com/about
I don't think that car has a stock a/c system, it's blowing 16F in cab! So, to match that performance, get your a/c to work like that.
https://youtu.be/BR7kYFf_MaU?t=203
On this video that shows the car is actually moving, it says there is three temp probe. The big number shows aft intercooler air charge. Start 61F, towards the end, temp is at 64F, temp reduce is great at all but there isn't a freezing intake air temp there either. Note, there wasn't any hard PULLING, (a Saturn SC2 passed it!) The numbers are just from cruising the car. I can tell you from A.J.'s Megasquirt log that cruising and HARD pulling can produce every different air charge numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_etTIzWR-bs
And I found this
So, you're not going to see any air charge near freezing temperature when you get on it.Air charge temps before installation of killer chiller system were between 164 and 165 degrees going through the traps. With the killer chiller (KC) unit our downstream temps were between 105 and 98 degrees,
I'm not saying there is no gain, I'm saying the gain is probably less than what everybody think it is. The way the website worded got you thinking "freezing", but in reality, the system got the intake temperature from 165F to 98F when pulling hard.
Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 01:12 PM.
The demon uses a/c to cool the intercooler.
Info on his water to air setup and his air to air setup? Hard to compare without specifics.
If you're talking about A.J.'s van, info are all in there. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...-Caravan-build
Specific water to air info are harder to find, but it's all there in different posts
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1062122
Air to air info
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1138443
- - - Updated - - -
Define "good result"?
AJ's van ran 12.6s/made over 360whp using the water to air intercooler, even though the intake temp was in 185F range!!
So, what we need is intake temp data from the start of the 1/4 and the end of 1/4 or from a dyno run. If you don't have that data, all you do is guessing. Again, water to air intercooler can work great, but you need data to verify it is working well, not just guessing. We thought AJ's water to air intercooler is working well, after we verify the data, we couldn't be more wrong.
No idea what A.J.'s issue is. All I am saying is, verify the intercooler setup is working correctly under load, don't just assume because you spend a bunch of money and put it together it will work correctly under load.
I used the open element charge temp sensor, which respond pretty quick. Something like this. https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-GM-25.../dp/B000ECMZ20
It always seems strange to me that the longer I stay in boost the colder my charge air temperature. Maybe that just shows how heat soaked my intake manifold really is.
Thanks for the data.
Yup, we know it is odd and no, we never figure out what caused it. As I said before, verify the intercooler setup is working correctly under load, don't just assume because you spend a bunch of money and put it together it will work correctly under load.