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Thread: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

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    Garrett booster
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    Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!


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    turbo addict
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    how'd you get that? That's CSXtra's setup.

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    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Hi Errol, that is an air-to-water intercooler. The air flows from the bottom of the cooler to the top of the cooler, and the cooling water is pumped from the back of the intercooler to the front of the intercooler, where it exits through a heat exchanger (radiator) in front of the car to be cooled, then goes to a tank that feeds the pump again.

    The water passing through the intercooler absorbs the heat from the air passing through, cooling the air going into the engine more efficiently than an air-to-air intercooler does...as long as the rest of the system can keep the water temperatures cool, and enough water is flowing through the cooler.
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    The big benefits of water to air is packaging, shorter intake path and if you use ice you can get colder than ambient temps.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    If you plumb the coolant through your ac system you can cool the air temp down below freezing even.


    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    If you plumb the coolant through your ac system you can cool the air temp down below freezing even.
    I think that is wildly optimistic. Let's put it this way, how long does it take for a little bit of water to became ice in your freezer?

    Also, a/c needs to be running for that part of the system to work. Problem is, when WOT, a/c stop running, when idle, intake manifold will get heat soak due to its location.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 12:49 AM.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    plumbing through the A/C is a known awesome set up. and yes you can get it to freezing. or right above easily.
    Look at "killer chillers". you want 34* water temps in your IC system?. get one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://killerchiller.com/about

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    The demon uses a/c to cool the intercooler.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    plumbing through the A/C is a known awesome set up. and yes you can get it to freezing. or right above easily.
    Look at "killer chillers". you want 34* water temps in your IC system?. get one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://killerchiller.com/about
    I don't think that car has a stock a/c system, it's blowing 16F in cab! So, to match that performance, get your a/c to work like that.

    https://youtu.be/BR7kYFf_MaU?t=203


    On this video that shows the car is actually moving, it says there is three temp probe. The big number shows aft intercooler air charge. Start 61F, towards the end, temp is at 64F, temp reduce is great at all but there isn't a freezing intake air temp there either. Note, there wasn't any hard PULLING, (a Saturn SC2 passed it!) The numbers are just from cruising the car. I can tell you from A.J.'s Megasquirt log that cruising and HARD pulling can produce every different air charge numbers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_etTIzWR-bs

    And I found this

    Air charge temps before installation of killer chiller system were between 164 and 165 degrees going through the traps. With the killer chiller (KC) unit our downstream temps were between 105 and 98 degrees,
    So, you're not going to see any air charge near freezing temperature when you get on it.

    I'm not saying there is no gain, I'm saying the gain is probably less than what everybody think it is. The way the website worded got you thinking "freezing", but in reality, the system got the intake temperature from 165F to 98F when pulling hard.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 01:12 PM.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    think that is wildly optimistic. Let's put it this way, how long does it take for a little bit of water to became ice in your freezer?

    Also, a/c needs to be running for that part of the system to work. Problem is, when WOT, a/c stop running, when idle, intake manifold will get heat soak due to its location.

    I don't think I've been wildly optimistic in 30 or 40 years lol. I should have said water temperature not air temperature. My system got the water/antifreeze mixture below zero on multiple occasions. Intake air temperature was below ambient at times. I used a reservoir with a few gallons of coolant in it. A/C system runs in hot weather most of the time anyhow so water was freezing cold after a few minutes of engine running. Water pump ran all the time to keep water circulated even when ac compressor cycled off on wot. System worked great on the street but they made me turn off my ac at the track. More detailed info here - https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4...e-build-5.html

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    Intake air temperature was below ambient at times.
    I've seen the same below ambient result on A.J.'s van when he is cruising. But as soon as he WOT, the intake air temperature number goes up and up. Looking at his MS logs at the drag strip, you'll see 185F air!
    http://thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dod...day%20copy.msl

    MAT is intake temp



    Some water to air intercooler system works well for the designed purpose, ie. run that 1/4 mile with ice bucket dumped into the reservoir. Other system like A.J., at low volume of air, it looks good (idling or cruising) , but as soon as you WOT, the large volume of air overcome the system and you see high intake temperature number. People are too busy look at the road and not notice their crazy high intake air temp, it wasn't until we look at his log we realized something is seriously wrong with his water to air intercooler setup.

    We still don't know what was wrong with the setup, he took an easy way out by installing a large air to air intercooler and that solved his crazy high air intake issue.
    Last edited by tryingbe; 09-27-2018 at 11:11 AM.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Info on his water to air setup and his air to air setup? Hard to compare without specifics.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    ..., but as soon as you WOT, the large volume of air overcome the system and you see high intake temperature number. People are too busy look at the road and not notice their crazy high intake air temp, it wasn't until we look at his log we realized something is seriously wrong with his water to air intercooler setup. ......
    No surprise here at all, in fact I would expect it. I am a gas chromatographer and thermal transfer from Gas to solid to liquid and finally to Gas is my day job. I have mentioned details in the past and got FLAMED. All I will say, is don't expect a free horsepower lunch here. For example, yes the Demon uses the AC to cool the intake but I would guess the AC is shutdown during WOT. The excess heat energy of the intake is removed by the AC prior to going WOT. Even if it was on during WOT, it is unlikely to remove significant heat load but will reduce total engine torque/horsepower during this event as the power requirement of the AC is significant. When your AC is working, the AIS opens to raise RPM and in our cars the A/F drops. Remember, thermal transfer is only effective for turbulent flow(causes higher backpressure) and if the flow is laminar thermal transfer is very poor and relies on diffusion rather than mixing. For fun, perhaps we should run a simple calculation of adiabatic compression to 20PSI at 6000RPM and determine how much HP does it take to cool back to ambient temp. Any volunteers?
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    I think we are comparing apples to oranges. A lot of things would need to be considered such as compressor efficiency, boost level, intercooler efficiency, amount of water in the system etc. Also water to air or even with ice in the reservoir it would not be nearly as good as a system that has water temps consistently below freezing. If his water was 60 degrees for example his heat transfer through the intercooler would not be anywhere near what it would be with 30 degree water.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    I think we are comparing apples to oranges.
    Well, ok. Do you have data on your air to water intercooler setup to how well the setup is working on your car?
    Something like intake temp at the start of the 1/4 mile and intake temp at the end of the 1/4 mile.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Rob aka force fed Mopar has been running air to water for a while with good results.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    Info on his water to air setup and his air to air setup? Hard to compare without specifics.

    If you're talking about A.J.'s van, info are all in there. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...-Caravan-build


    Specific water to air info are harder to find, but it's all there in different posts
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1062122

    Air to air info
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1138443

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    Rob aka force fed Mopar has been running air to water for a while with good results.
    Define "good result"?

    AJ's van ran 12.6s/made over 360whp using the water to air intercooler, even though the intake temp was in 185F range!!

    So, what we need is intake temp data from the start of the 1/4 and the end of 1/4 or from a dyno run. If you don't have that data, all you do is guessing. Again, water to air intercooler can work great, but you need data to verify it is working well, not just guessing. We thought AJ's water to air intercooler is working well, after we verify the data, we couldn't be more wrong.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post

    So, you're not going to see any air charge near freezing temperature when you get on it.

    I'm not saying there is no gain, I'm saying the gain is probably less than what everybody think it is. The way the website worded got you thinking "freezing", but in reality, the system got the intake temperature from 165F to 98F when pulling hard.
    Air charge temps at freezing?. no.
    but intercooler water temp at freezing. yup.

    its a hell of a set up. amazing uses. easily toggled on and off if needed or wanted.

  19. #19
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    If you're talking about A.J.'s van, info are all in there. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...-Caravan-build


    Specific water to air info are harder to find, but it's all there in different posts
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1062122

    Air to air info
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1138443

    - - - Updated - - -



    Define "good result"?

    AJ's van ran 12.6s/made over 360whp using the water to air intercooler, even though the intake temp was in 185F range!!

    So, what we need is intake temp data from the start of the 1/4 and the end of 1/4 or from a dyno run. If you don't have that data, all you do is guessing. Again, water to air intercooler can work great, but you need data to verify it is working well, not just guessing. We thought AJ's water to air intercooler is working well, after we verify the data, we couldn't be more wrong.
    Are you attributing his problems with water to air setups as a whole? Or incorrectly sized cooler? I've done a lot of reading and people have had good success with water to air setups.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Well, ok. Do you have data on your air to water intercooler setup to how well the setup is working on your car?
    Something like intake temp at the start of the 1/4 mile and intake temp at the end of the 1/4 mile.
    Normally my setup never got above 120 to 130 under 18 psi boost. I only logged it from the charge temp sensor which I know is very slow to respond but even on long uphill pulls it would stay around 100 degrees or so.

    From 5 years ago -- https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4...e-build-6.html

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