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Thread: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post

    I think the main problem with the frozen boost design is SMALL coolant connections. Once I purchase my set up I had planed to have it machined for larger outlets and connections. to get that HOT coolant out faster and get some cold water into the core faster.. should equalize the difference.. if we see +40* of intake temp and only +4* in intercooler liquid temp. its a clear sign we are not utilizing enough of the coolant heat transfer abilities. I want to see my intercooler tank water temps go up 20-30* and the intake temps go up 20-30* as well.
    I agree with this, and plan to enlarge my plumbing and fittings from 3/4 to 1" over the winter. I figure it will be less money than a new intercooler, and if it does come to that, I'll have benefitted from the larger plumbing either way.
    Mike Marra
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  2. #42
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Maybe, but I had pretty good flow going through mine using 5/8 hose. I had almost thought it was too much flow, like it wasn't staying in the core long enough to absorb the heat. Could be wrong though. Car is almost ready to drive again, so maybe once I get some temp logging equipment I can check temps, then drill out the holes to allow 3/4 or 1" hose and see what it does. I think the exchanger fittings are at least 3/4, IIRC I had to step them down to use 5/8 hose.
    I think the theory of "too much flow" through a cooling system is in doubt.
    Mike Marra
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  3. #43
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    it's not about the amount it flows but how it flows. you can flow plenty through the 5/8" hose but the flow doesn't disperse in the water manifold. You wouldn't design your end tanks where the air goes like this so why the water manifolds too?

  4. #44
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    The "too much flow" idea is true or false depending on what is flowing and how fast. Taking a thermostat out of some cars will cause overheating as the water does not stay in the radiator long enough to transfer heat out in to the air. Many cars have a set amount of airflow when the electric fan is on as our cars do. You run 200 plus degree water through a radiator really fast and if it only looses 10 degrees of temperature in the 10 seconds or less its in the radiator the car will build heat till it boils over. Variable speed fans or really cold air can help this out. Air going though a radiator is just the opposite. The more you put through the more heat you will pull out. In a water intercooler setup we know the air is going through very fast. If the water goes through to slowly you dont get very good intercooling as the water gets hot before it gets out of the intercooler. If the intercooler is efficient in transferring heat from the air it must have cold water in it all the way through or part of it wont be transfering much heat into already hot water. High water flow in a radiator is not so good. High water flow in an intercooler is great but it has to be cold to be of any real benefit. Ambient temp water in my opinion is not going to make you gain much over an air to air cooler. All you gain is a smaller cooler that can be fit in tight places under the hood. On the other had you greatly complicate a system that wont be any better than an air to air if you cannot cool the water down well below ambient. Just my opinion.

  5. #45
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    There is no way to fit 3" intercooler pipes to the front of my lancer without cutting it up severely, or removing a/c. I will do neither. That's the main benefit of water to air to me and why i will look into running it.

  6. #46
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    The "too much flow" idea is true or false depending on what is flowing and how fast. Taking a thermostat out of some cars will cause overheating as the water does not stay in the radiator long enough to transfer heat out in to the air. Many cars have a set amount of airflow when the electric fan is on as our cars do. You run 200 plus degree water through a radiator really fast and if it only looses 10 degrees of temperature in the 10 seconds or less its in the radiator the car will build heat till it boils over. Variable speed fans or really cold air can help this out. Air going though a radiator is just the opposite. The more you put through the more heat you will pull out. In a water intercooler setup we know the air is going through very fast. If the water goes through to slowly you dont get very good intercooling as the water gets hot before it gets out of the intercooler. If the intercooler is efficient in transferring heat from the air it must have cold water in it all the way through or part of it wont be transfering much heat into already hot water. High water flow in a radiator is not so good. High water flow in an intercooler is great but it has to be cold to be of any real benefit. Ambient temp water in my opinion is not going to make you gain much over an air to air cooler. All you gain is a smaller cooler that can be fit in tight places under the hood. On the other had you greatly complicate a system that wont be any better than an air to air if you cannot cool the water down well below ambient. Just my opinion.
    How does a thermostat "slow down" the water moving through the radiator without it "slowing down" flow throughout the system causing water pump cavitation? The way you make water "stay in the radiator longer" is to use a larger radiator.
    Mike Marra
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  7. #47
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    The thermostat stops the water flow through the radiator when its closed. Most engines have a water pump bypass so water continues to flow through the water pump and block in a loop. This way all the water gets to be the temperature of the thermostat before it opens. Our 4 cylinders use the heater core hoses as the bypass. That's why its not a good idea to plug them off if you run a thermostat.

  8. #48
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    How does a thermostat "slow down" the water moving through the radiator without it "slowing down" flow throughout the system causing water pump cavitation?
    The heater core.

    In greater detail.... when hot, the thermostat is actually only meant to open flow to the radiator which has a lower pressure drop than the heater core loop. Even with the thermostat closed completely the flow through the heater core should be enough so that the pump doesn't cavitate. Even with the thermostat wide open there's enough pressure drop across it to ensure coolant flows through the heater core loop and the radiator at the same time.

    Don't have or want a heater core because race car? Bypass loop instead of heater core with a slight restriction, or drilled thermostat (this is the only time I will support a drilled thermostat). You need to make sure flow can happen even when it's dead cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    The way you make water "stay in the radiator longer" is to use a larger radiator.
    This is true. It also should have a lower pressure drop so that less flow goes to the heater core.

    Now, the "coolant fittings too small" issue: Flow really can be broken down to it being all about pressure drops. Small fittings have greater pressure drops, true. To increase flow you can get bigger fittings or change the pump. It all has to do with the efficiency of the pump you're dealing with. Some people don't have options and have to use the cheapest pump they can afford, so it may not flow well at high pressure drops. Conversely, they could be using the pump they got for free from uncle Jerry that came off his tractor, or whatever, and it flows too much. Then, smaller fittings helps control the flow and avoid the situation rgl10 referred to. In the absence of true engineering design it really comes down to trial and error, and really, that's the fun part.

  9. #49
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl10 View Post
    The thermostat stops the water flow through the radiator when its closed. Most engines have a water pump bypass so water continues to flow through the water pump and block in a loop. This way all the water gets to be the temperature of the thermostat before it opens. Our 4 cylinders use the heater core hoses as the bypass. That's why its not a good idea to plug them off if you run a thermostat.
    Sorry, I was posting at the same time as you. I didn't see your response until after I was complete.

  10. #50
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor rgl10's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo SOB View Post
    Sorry, I was posting at the same time as you. I didn't see your response until after I was complete.
    Same thing happens to me cause I'm a slow typer lol.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    back to a point made by force fed before..

    I think if your assumption of coolant flow and heat was correct we would see a larger change in tank/return temp right?.

    if the water is maxing its heat absorbtion properties. it would be getting hotter in the tank..
    I would want to see a good healthy rise in tank temp. showing my IC was removing the heat.

    If my intake temps go up 40-50*. but my coolant is only going up 4*.. i dont think there is enough coolant getting to the air. to draw the heat out.

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    back to a point made by force fed before..

    I think if your assumption of coolant flow and heat was correct we would see a larger change in tank/return temp right?.

    if the water is maxing its heat absorbtion properties. it would be getting hotter in the tank..
    I would want to see a good healthy rise in tank temp. showing my IC was removing the heat.

    If my intake temps go up 40-50*. but my coolant is only going up 4*.. i dont think there is enough coolant getting to the air. to draw the heat out.
    Isn't that relative to the volume of the water in the tank?
    Mike Marra
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    relative to everything.. volume of air through the IC. size of tank. water flow speed and volume. pressure in the system. altitiduee. you can pick it apart any way you want.


    But if one side of the system sees a 40* change.. and the other side sees a 4* change... dont you think the system isnt working?.

  14. #54

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Just out of curiosity, Has anyone weighed their entire water to air set-up? Core, all plumbing, coolant, pump, and all fittings? I mean EVERYTHING. what is the weight penalty? and what is the added electrical load?
    Worlds fastest 8 Valve 6.3sec., 119.70 1/8, Best MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.78 sec.,144.26mph. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    That'll depend on your setup. It seems like the dedicated drag cars don't bother with a heat exchanger. Just an icebox. It's not like big air to airs are light.

  16. #56

    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    That'll depend on your setup. It seems like the dedicated drag cars don't bother with a heat exchanger. Just an icebox. It's not like big air to airs are light.
    Just wondering, just seems like with 2-3 gal of coolant it would have to be quite hefty. with air to air my highest recorded finish line charge temp. was 123 degrees.
    that was with a 102 degree ambient temp on that particular run. On a cooler day, say 80-90 deg. max temp. will average 105-115 deg.

    There are very simple ways to chill an air to air IC in the staging lanes (way below ambient) that involve nothing that stays with the car.

    I'm definitely not saying there is not a place for water to air IC, Just got to weigh the benefits vs weight and added complexity. More $hit to go wrong.
    Worlds fastest 8 Valve 6.3sec., 119.70 1/8, Best MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.78 sec.,144.26mph. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    and honestly if you are just drag racing and not worried about the street. a good Co2 intercooler sprayer kit will work better than about anything else you can think of.

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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    Just wondering, just seems like with 2-3 gal of coolant it would have to be quite hefty. with air to air my highest recorded finish line charge temp. was 123 degrees.
    that was with a 102 degree ambient temp on that particular run. On a cooler day, say 80-90 deg. max temp. will average 105-115 deg.

    There are very simple ways to chill an air to air IC in the staging lanes (way below ambient) that involve nothing that stays with the car.

    I'm definitely not saying there is not a place for water to air IC, Just got to weigh the benefits vs weight and added complexity. More $hit to go wrong.

    All valid points. I'd probably have stuck with A2A if it weren't for space constraints. Heck, to save space and weight, i could convert to alcohol and get away without an intercooler at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    relative to everything.. volume of air through the IC. size of tank. water flow speed and volume. pressure in the system. altitiduee. you can pick it apart any way you want.


    But if one side of the system sees a 40* change.. and the other side sees a 4* change... dont you think the system isnt working?.
    I would say the only way to accurately use that as a comparison is to get the temp of the water as it enters and exits the intercooler core, before it mixes back in with the water in the tank.
    Mike Marra
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  19. #59
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I would say the only way to accurately use that as a comparison is to get the temp of the water as it enters and exits the intercooler core, before it mixes back in with the water in the tank.
    Another unknown factor on my setup is the heat exchanger after the intercooler. My water temps are measured on the inlet of the intercooler, but I am not measuring water temp out of the intercooler, nor inlet/outlet temps on the heat exchanger, so part of the low water temp increase could be due to the heat exchanger taking water heat out before the temp probe on the intercooler inlet.
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    Re: Will somebody please explain this set up to me!!Oh! Hi every one!

    I'm only going water/air because I don't want to cut metal out of my Shelby Lancer for an air/air. My ShelbyZ is getting a huge treadstone air/air ic. Though really you can run 3" pipes through the rad support with just enlarging 2 factory holes so the cutting isn't that much.

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