Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 33 of 33

Thread: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

  1. #21

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Cordes: the Enforcer II I have is a .46 trim cold side with a .63 A/R turbine housing and Stage II turbine wheel.

    Tryingbe: 93 Octane. NGK BPR7ES 11. Gap is at .028. No log for boost, although I can get a few. .63 A/R turbine housing, Stage II turbine wheel. There was a little unshrouding done, but I paid a cylinder porter to do it (he usually only does SBF or BBF cylinder heads). I had no money at the time for larger valves (and for the work to cut them in and improve the bowls), I thought the springs were weak so when I ordered the springs, locks and retainers, I also bought the 475 cam with improved lifters. I no longer have a stock roller cam/lifters.

    A.J.: I am definitely getting 1:1 pressure rise. I can see that on the gauge as it builds boost. IIRC, when we reached the limit of my 3-bar MAP I saw approximately 70 psi of fuel pressure (sustained).

    Force Fed Mopar: It has a 52mm now. I suspect many have accomplished much better number on a 52mm? I did, however, check to make sure the tb blade was opening all the way when my wife pushed the pedal to the floor. Additionally, I checked the TV cable adjustment since I was right there (I thought the line pressure would be too weak if the TV cable was not properly adjusted).

    83scamp: The AFR's are great. They are about 11.7 in boost, but when the "layover" hits, it richens to 10.5 after holding the throttle down trying to push pass the "flatness".

    Gaboon: It does not misfire. It is still firing on all 4, it just goes flat.....the only way I know how to describe it. I didn't do it this time, but I have had my spark plug gap all the way to .016 and it still does the same thing. Fuel pressure is there. It richens to 10.5 seconds AFTER the episode begins, but is a good 11.7 when it initiates.

    Contraption 22: I have no recorded data. I am going to hook up the laptop and do a few pulls soon so that I may log this and you all can have better information. When on the dyno, Eric used his own laptop so I have nothing recorded.

    The Don and 83scamp: I don't have any idling issues; smooooooth as glass since Eric tuned it. I had the same issue with +40% injectors.

    Tryingbe: my static fp is set at 43.5 (which is what the injector called for to get the 750cc flow). It goes to about 37~38 at idle with about 18 in/hg.

    Reaper1: I have a WB on the Big Stuff, plus I have an Innovate a little further downstream that I can monitor while driving (dash guage). I don't have the maps to show you, but I will get them soon. Also, I did a check on the MAP for reference voltage. As I increased air pressure to the MAP while checking the reference, I found no episodes of "sticking" or a "plateau" of the reference voltage. The voltage responded as pressure was increased. I have also had 3 different GM 3-bar MAP sensors on it.....all the same results.

    Force Fed Mopar: since there was no increase in valve size, the port work was mostly at the flanges. There was a little unshrouding, but since I am not a cylinder head porter I cannot tell you how good the work is. I think I need a better head. I will take a suggestion.

    Tryingbe: are you saying that you do not believe the converter is the problem, but the cylinder head?

    Wheming: yes, that is my van....had a great time, as usual. You think the converter is acting normal and it is not a trans/converter problem, but a power/bottleneck problem?

    Gentlemen, I apologize for the late reply, but I REALLY appreciate you all helping me. Thanks, guys.

  2. #22
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Greenville/Spartanburg SC area
    Posts
    7,537

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Do you have a pic of the head so we can see the port inlets?
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  3. #23
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Raleigh Area, NC
    Posts
    4,409

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    ...

    Wheming: yes, that is my van....had a great time, as usual. You think the converter is acting normal and it is not a trans/converter problem, but a power/bottleneck problem?

    Gentlemen, I apologize for the late reply, but I REALLY appreciate you all helping me. Thanks, guys.
    I'm not an expert, I've only dyno'd one automatic trans vehicle, (Mini). But your graph is consistent with what I observed with mine.

    As far as a power/torque laydown at the track or feeling like it doesn't have much at the end of the track, that may be consistent too.
    Have you calculated how much HP it takes to make a 3000lb vehicle to achieve 113-115mph in a 1/4mile?
    The van also has about 30-32 sq ft of frontal area! That is like pushing a billboard down the quarter mile!

    I suspect you are in the same situation all of us van racers are in. You need more power if you want to be faster. You are already pretty light. And the run i saw is nothing to be ashamed about, 12 seconds in a van is going to get attention.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  4. #24
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    7,183

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    C
    Tryingbe: are you saying that you do not believe the converter is the problem, but the cylinder head?
    Converter is one thing. The stockish cylinder head lack the ability to breath over 5000 RPM is another. It is VERY to common for a stockish 8 valve cylinder head to peak its HP way before 5000 RPM.
    Look at all their dyno sheet and read their description.

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/ddg_dyno_day_12503.html
    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/dyno_sheets.html
    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/ne_sdac_dyno_day.html


    Here is an episode of engine master that shows ported head really only shines above 4500rpm. (13:00 mark if you don't to wait)
    https://www.motortrendondemand.com/d...er/0_ymn4ws9t/

    Cylinder head made for high RPM engine needs both quality & quantity of flow. It wants big port, low restriction, and big valves.


    Oh, if you're wondering if your turbo is big enough. I can plot your dyno HP numbers on the compressor map pretty easily. That's how I found out I was over the surge line when my boost spike over 29psi. Let me know if want me to do that for you.




  5. #25
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Aubigny, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    4,995

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    "The cam timing is correct. I verified that (again) today."

    Can you elaborate further on this?


    Correct as in degreed properly? Or correct as in looks OK like it's running "straight up"?

    Limiting factors AFAICS;

    46 trim turbo, specially in a stock comp housing (is the housing at least ported?)

    Stock valve'd head

    Spearco short pass I/C, great for pressure diff, but not so much for cooling a stock comp housing hybrid turbo.

    Cam timing! Have you tried retarding cam 2 deg to see any difference?

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  6. #26

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Force Fed Mopar: I do not have pics of the porting on the cylinder head. I have decided to buy a better cylinder head, so by the time I take the manifolds off of it, the porting question will be moot as I will be putting on a much better cylinder head. I wish I had better information to give you, but I didn't take any pics before the manifolds were added or before I clamped it to the block (thus I cannot show you the combustion chambers).

    Wheming: I do not know how to calculate that. I can tell you that I DO feel like I am driving a coffee table down the track. I have made an attempt at aero on this van, though. I have done some sheet metal fairings for the front. I lowered it. I lightened it. I wish I could "unload the cart" a little more, but I don't have much more to take out; I am guessing less than 75 lbs. I went on a diet even and lost 34 lbs. LOL Eventually, I will have to start "beating the horse" just a little harder, so I will need a better top-end.

    Tryinbe: Yes! What other information may I give you to do that? Thanks for the information; I will read it now.

    Shadow: I checked the cam timing with a timing light. It is dead on with the marks, but I have not degreed the cam. I have asked Brandon to walk me through degreeing the cam. I will do this and post my results. The turbo compressor is not in a factory housing. It is a Forward Motion Enforcer II. Yes, the valve size is stock. I am going to put a new top-end on my engine. My power goals have changed, so I have to make changes to support that power. I do not have any readings for differential pressures or temperatures through the Spearco intercooler. I was seriously considering fabricating an air-to-water I/C for the van. I need to gather more data on that intercooler, but I have been much more concerned about how badly it runs up top. I have not retarded the cam timing, but once I get home I will and post results.

  7. #27
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Aubigny, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    4,995

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    Shadow: I checked the cam timing with a timing light. It is dead on with the marks, but I have not degreed the cam. I have asked Brandon to walk me through degreeing the cam. I will do this and post my results.

    If it's already installed with adj cam gear and you've verified it's straight up, you will find out more about it being where you want it by retarding 2 deg at a time and confirming difference it top end power.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    The turbo compressor is not in a factory housing. It is a Forward Motion Enforcer II.

    Every Enforcer II turbo I've seen was a stock TII comp housing punched out for larger wheel. I've heard that they changed to a slightly larger TO4b housing but have never seen one in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    Yes, the valve size is stock. I am going to put a new top-end on my engine. My power goals have changed, so I have to make changes to support that power.

    If your power goals have changed, you may want to consider a larger turbo. While the 46 trim is a great pick for quick spool and power too 380WHP most only realize 325-350 with a manual, so 300ish with auto and your almost right there now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    I do not have any readings for differential pressures or temperatures through the Spearco intercooler. I was seriously considering fabricating an air-to-water I/C for the van. I need to gather more data on that intercooler, but I have been much more concerned about how badly it runs up top.

    Speaking from experience, the short pass Spearco I/C is great for low pressure drop because it's such a short pass. Not so great at over-all cooling for that same reason. You should hook up a scan tool and read AIT (charge air) and see if your getting any cooling on a run. ie. Start temp vs through and end off full pass.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  8. #28
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor tryingbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    7,183

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post

    Tryinbe: Yes! What other information may I give you to do that? Thanks for the information; I will read it now.
    Which dyno run has the highest HP?
    What is your max psi on that dyno?
    What RPM did that max psi come in?

  9. #29

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Shadow: I have an adjustable cam gear, but when it cam back from FM (I bought a forged short block from Mike and asked him to check my head and clamp it to the short block) it had a stock cam gear. I can put the adjustable on to do the test. I don't know when the compressor housing changed, but this doesn't look stock to me. I don't know that I have seen a factory Garrett compressor cover as my van came with a Mitsu when I bought it. I am ready to buy a new top-end, new big-valve head, cam, header, turbo, and intake.....taking suggestions now. LOL. I am on BIG Stuff, so those values are easy to look at with my laptop. I also think that my AIC should be in the intake tract between the I/C and TB and not in the intake. I would like to have an air-to-water I/C as this is only a drag van now (but still tagged and insured).

    Tryingbe: the last dyno run IIRC. 26 psi was the highest pressure. I don't know that as I don't have the log (Eric did all the runs on his own laptop, so I don't have that). But, when I get home I can log a couple of runs with my laptop, save them, then shoot them to you.

  10. #30
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Antonio,TX
    Posts
    10,789

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    The more info i get from Les and from this thread etc the more i think it must have to be on the control side. IF something were mechanically eating that power that's missing, it would be converting it into heat. If you guesstimate he's missing 30hp (made up number not even an educated guess) that would be like 22,000w of heat that would be going SOMEWHERE. Something would melt or catch on fire pretty quickly. So something is preventing it from MAKING the power. All the normal little things that would affect power production marginally (cylinder head flow, cam orientation, turbo, etc etc) won't actually stop the engine from revving higher, they'll just put a cap on power production. If the turbo could only flow 285hp of air, it would still rev out to the limiter, it would just make 285 from 5200 to redline. It probably only takes ~30-40hp to spin the whole engine to 6500rpm even while it's pumping 285hp worth of cfm. A stock tbi engine could rev itself to destruction with 40% throttle or less if it didn't have a limiter in the CONTROLS.

    So i think it's either a tune or reference sensor or noise issue. Some standalones have a scope function to debug their crank/cam sensors, so if Big Stuff has that i would look at your reference signals at that point and see if they are still clean.

    My only other thought is still exhaust valvesprings, but i dont have a solid handle on how to test for it easily. The assumption is that 'drive pressure' in the exhaust ports is 'floating' the valvesprings at a certain point. The most basic test for that is does it rev all the way out with no boost? It does.. But it also revs higher with 25psi boost than 8 which makes me second guess myself. The only way i could explain that is MAYBE if you have a low enough drive pressure ratio, the fact that the face of the valve has a larger surface area than the area that's exposed on the backside when it is seated might cancel out the increasing backpressure up to a point. Im sure a lot of experienced people could tell a valve float issue purely by the sound it makes but i cant and im not with the van anyway. The only non-subjective thing i could think to look at while the engine is still together would be EGT. In theory if you were leaking exhaust back into the chamber during the intake stroke you'd have 'inert air' with no oxygen during the power stroke, and since less fuel was burned you would have lower EGTs with all else equal. This is the EGR concept in a nutshell.

    So uhh it's either valvesprings or the controls. How helpful right?!

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  11. #31

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Vigo, any info that I can get is good. Honeslty, until I can get back long enough to mess with the van, I just keep guessing. I owe an answer on several of these tests I have been asked to do. I have a written list of tests to try (do the free ones first) like spark plug gap, swapping the cam gear to the adjustable one and retarding the cam, degreeing the cam, etc.

    Also, I ordered a new converter. It should be here in about 4-6 weeks and it should be a really nice piece. If the converter doesn't do what I think it will, I will just have two converters. No problem as I have to buy a converter for the Rampage anyway when it goes together.

    If the freebie tests and converter doesn't fix it, I am going to add a new top-end. New big-valve head, intake, tubular manifold and turbo. Once again, these are parts I would have to buy anyway as I have to put together an engine for the Rampage. Once I figure out my problem, I can deal with those parts before they are installed on the Rampage engine.

    Again, thanks for all of your help! I owe you answers and will get them as soon as I get home!

  12. #32
    boostaholic
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    socal
    Posts
    1,194

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    Are you easing out of the throttle when that dyno graph peaks out? Or is that WOT all the way?
    MinivanRider

  13. #33

    Re: Same problem, but with dyno tape now

    WOT throttle the whole time.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Stupid overlay tape!
    By turboaddict in forum Interior & Exterior Restoration
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-01-2011, 07:16 PM
  2. cloth tape?
    By TurboII in forum Maintenance & General Tech
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-16-2009, 07:38 PM
  3. Harness end tape
    By 135sohc in forum Electrical & Fuel System
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-11-2008, 02:06 PM
  4. Tape Decks!
    By JDAWG in forum Parts For Sale
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-12-2006, 09:55 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •