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Thread: Air/water intercooler sources

  1. #41
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Throw in a layer of aluminum between them.

    -that would be your intercooler core it's self
    so now you've added the most dense part of the equation solid al
    now you have to exchange heat from gas to solid and then to water , back to a solid and then back to air once again

    it's not just transfer from gas to fliud

  2. #42
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Oh god...thermodynamics! AAHHHH!!!! LOL

    As for the "hot spots"....the closed system is under pressure. This raises the boiling point (just like a pressure cooker). Yes, the metal still gets hot enough to boil the coolant if its stagnant, but that shouldn't happen with a properly designed and functioning system.

    As for how fast the coolant flows through the heat exchanger...different materials have different heat rejection rates. It is totally FALSE to say that the coolant can go through at whatever speed and still do the job. This is simply not true! If the coolant if forced through an exchanger too fast, it will not have enough time to reject the amount of heat needed to keep the temperatures in check as it will just continue to build heat until it reaches its boiling point or equilibrium.

    Heat transfer rate is Calories/(m^2*sec).... velocity (m/s) has nothing to do with cooling? Huh....

    http://www.endmemo.com/physics/heattransfer.php

  3. #43
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    This topic is very, very complex including laminar vs turbulent flow heat transfer rate, materials etc., Due to the complexity of each system, it is easier to measure the temperature in vs out of each system of adjust accordingly.
    Personally I would like to see the real world data....reminds me of a few sayings of W. Edwards Deming, he had a sense of humour....In God we trust..all others must bring data!
    Regards,
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  4. #44
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    I would agree with this, based on the numbers I was seeing with my Frozenboost A/W IC. Pressure drop across it was 3-4 psi at 20+ psi of boost, and the cooling was not very good.

    Once I upgraded to a much larger Bell core (everything else the same), I haven't seen over 1.5 psi of pressure drop and I have seen over 230 degree temperature drops, even with 100 degree water temps. From the logs I have currently, it looks like the output temps are 10-15 degrees above the water temp.


    Pics of said intercooler? I'm going water/air in my Shelby Lancer and with a GT30R/ported head/tbi header want to have a good i/c.

  5. #45
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    I just went through and installed my air to water intercooler setup, but have yet to actually test it at the track or on a running car. My setup is a bit different than others here but the setup is essentially the same. Im running the type 3 intercooler from frozen boost, a CX racing heat exchanger, Bosch pump, and frozen boost ice box. Heres a video i made going over the whole thing. With a little bit of ice in the ice box, it gets cold enough to make the intercooler and heat exchanger sweat.


  6. #46
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    I dunno about that long brass fitting sticking out of the tank, vibration could cause it to crack and break off after a while. Happened to a friend in his Omni, except with more disastrous results since it was in the oiling system (brass tee for a gauge, lasted like 10 miles).
    Rob M.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Mines all mockup and whatnot so i could figure out routing and stuff. That big hole will be sealed and it'll have rubber grommets around there to combat the vibrations

  8. #48
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    Pics of said intercooler? I'm going water/air in my Shelby Lancer and with a GT30R/ported head/tbi header want to have a good i/c.




    Warren Hall
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  9. #49
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    That's pretty awesome!
    Mike Marra
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  10. #50
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    That's pretty awesome!
    I agree. That is an awesome piece.

  11. #51
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Warren,
    THAT is beauty
    John Laing "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle." -- Alexis de Tocqueville "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary." --Ayn Rand "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that." -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  12. #52
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Does anyone know what the differences are between the FrozenBoost/Ebay AWIC's and the OEM AWICs - for Ford/GM V8s, in terms of fin count or other important factors? Warren, your Bell core is larger, is the fin count greater than the FrozenBoost unit you replaced?

    Then, Detroits V8 IC cores, and heat exchangers are of modest size and their Bosch pumps are apparently good enough for them, and our HP targets are in the same ballpark, if not lower. The only big variable is our higher boost and that presumably relates to CFM/mass, I don't know how much the difference is .. . but that seem critical in terms of moving calories
    John Laing "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle." -- Alexis de Tocqueville "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary." --Ayn Rand "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that." -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  13. #53
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Does anyone know what the differences are between the FrozenBoost/Ebay AWIC's and the OEM AWICs - for Ford/GM V8s, in terms of fin count or other important factors? Warren, your Bell core is larger, is the fin count greater than the FrozenBoost unit you replaced?

    Then, Detroits V8 IC cores, and heat exchangers are of modest size and their Bosch pumps are apparently good enough for them, and our HP targets are in the same ballpark, if not lower. The only big variable is our higher boost and that presumably relates to CFM/mass, I don't know how much the difference is .. . but that seem critical in terms of moving calories
    Port flow variables asside. 6.2L V8 can make 707hp at a much lower boost pressure than a 2.2-2.4 4cylinder. Demand for CFM could be similar, but temperatures would be greatly different. The more you you compress air, the hotter it gets.
    Mike Marra
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  14. #54
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Yes, thanks Mike, I should have thought of that - "follow the heat," as they say.

    So, similar mass but way more calories in that mass means that the rate of heat transfer must be increased. Ways to do that - greater coolant delta with more heat exchanger capacity and/or bigger IC core.

    The Ramerati build has a 4.5 x 4.5 x 9.0 AW core which it now appears lacks capacity, so, at this stage, I'm wondering how much benefit I can get by adding heat exchanger capacity. I need to get the darn thing running and let the twin thermocouples' in/out deltas speak. With twin MAP sensors, I'll be able to report on I/O pressure drop too.
    Last edited by johnl; 07-25-2018 at 07:32 PM.
    John Laing "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle." -- Alexis de Tocqueville "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary." --Ayn Rand "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that." -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  15. #55
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Does anyone know what the differences are between the FrozenBoost/Ebay AWIC's and the OEM AWICs - for Ford/GM V8s, in terms of fin count or other important factors? Warren, your Bell core is larger, is the fin count greater than the FrozenBoost unit you replaced?
    John,

    I don't really know about the fin count of the Bell core (the raw core was shipped directly to the fabricator so I didn't get a chance to measure/count them). One thing that I do know is that when I spoke to Gerhard Schruf at Bell about the cooler and told him I was looking to run 30+ psi of boost, he highly recommended the 6" core (airflow distance - bottom to top in my application) because it would cool much better than their 4.5" core. Based on the cooling results I would guess that the fin count is higher, but that could also be a function of the larger core also.

    For reference, the core I used is part number AW600053120 (6" tall x 5.3" wide x 12"deep).
    Warren Hall
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  16. #56
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    fin count don't count for much (louvers in them and fin height vs number of tubes in stack height mean more)

    think tube size and number of tubes

    a larger core will simply offer more of one, the other, or both

    larger tube offers more volume, less restriction and more fin to tube contact (if wider)

  17. #57
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Yes, thanks Mike, I should have thought of that - "follow the heat," as they say.

    So, similar mass but way more calories in that mass means that the rate of heat transfer must be increased. Ways to do that - greater coolant delta with more heat exchanger capacity and/or bigger IC core.

    The Ramerati build has a 4.5 x 4.5 x 9.0 AW core which it now appears lacks capacity, so, at this stage, I'm wondering how much benefit I can get by adding heat exchanger capacity. I need to get the darn thing running and let the twin thermocouples' in/out deltas speak. With twin MAP sensors, I'll be able to report on I/O pressure drop too.
    The only way to really know what needs to be improved is to add sensors everywhere. You'd need temp sensors in and out of the intercooler and out of the heat exchanger. As well temp and pressure sensors for air in and out of the intercooler, and an ambient air temp sensor.
    Mike Marra
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  18. #58
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Mike

    pic of combo temp and pressure sensor on IM and compressor
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    John Laing "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle." -- Alexis de Tocqueville "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary." --Ayn Rand "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that." -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  19. #59
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Two more
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    John Laing "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle." -- Alexis de Tocqueville "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary." --Ayn Rand "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that." -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  20. #60
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Nice!
    Mike Marra
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