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Thread: Air/water intercooler sources

  1. #21
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I ran the Bosch cobra pump. I installed a higher flowing water pump and cooling went down, my intake air temp went up. This is the pump I "upgraded" to: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...iABEgIe4vD_BwE
    It did flow flow more, I did a back to back test. I ended up putting the Bosch pump back in. After I wasted $200+ dollars on this pump I decided I wasn't going to invest anymore into trying to find out what my lack of cooling problem was.
    Probably the same problem you get when you remove the thermostat from an engine... If the water is moving too fast, it can't pick up enough of the heat from its surroundings. It's a basic law of thermodynamics. IF the fluid isn't in contact with the surface long enough, it can't transfer the heat energy. You may have had too much pump... That's not saying there wasn't efficiency issues with the intercooler...

    That's why I always cringe when I see somebody recommend removing a thermostat. If you are having cooling issues, removing the T-stat is the worst thing you can do, unless it's just flat out stuck closed, them something is better than nothing...
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  2. #22
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Probably the same problem you get when you remove the thermostat from an engine... If the water is moving too fast, it can't pick up enough of the heat from its surroundings. It's a basic law of thermodynamics. IF the fluid isn't in contact with the surface long enough, it can't transfer the heat energy. You may have had too much pump... That's not saying there wasn't efficiency issues with the intercooler...

    That's why I always cringe when I see somebody recommend removing a thermostat. If you are having cooling issues, removing the T-stat is the worst thing you can do, unless it's just flat out stuck closed, them something is better than nothing...

    I think everything has to work well together. For example: maybe the pump was flowing too much for the system, but would that still be true if the heat exchanger was larger/more efficient?
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  3. #23
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Exactly. If the system doesn't work efficiently as a whole, it's a waste.
    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I think everything has to work well together. For example: maybe the pump was flowing too much for the system, but would that still be true if the heat exchanger was larger/more efficient?
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  4. #24
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Probably the same problem you get when you remove the thermostat from an engine... If the water is moving too fast, it can't pick up enough of the heat from its surroundings.
    That's what I thought too.

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I think everything has to work well together. For example: maybe the pump was flowing too much for the system, but would that still be true if the heat exchanger was larger/more efficient?
    I think the intercooler was too small. I had a temp sensor before and after the intercooler and if I recall correctly the water temp didn't rise as fast the the intake air temp so I don't think the heat exchanger was the problem. I think the air just couldn't shed it's heat to the limited amount of surface area of the intercooler.
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  5. #25
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I think the intercooler was too small. I had a temp sensor before and after the intercooler and if I recall correctly the water temp didn't rise as fast the the intake air temp so I don't think the heat exchanger was the problem. I think the air just couldn't shed it's heat to the limited amount of surface area of the intercooler.
    I would agree with this, based on the numbers I was seeing with my Frozenboost A/W IC. Pressure drop across it was 3-4 psi at 20+ psi of boost, and the cooling was not very good.

    Once I upgraded to a much larger Bell core (everything else the same), I haven't seen over 1.5 psi of pressure drop and I have seen over 230 degree temperature drops, even with 100 degree water temps. From the logs I have currently, it looks like the output temps are 10-15 degrees above the water temp.
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  6. #26
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    I would agree with this, based on the numbers I was seeing with my Frozenboost A/W IC. Pressure drop across it was 3-4 psi at 20+ psi of boost, and the cooling was not very good.

    Once I upgraded to a much larger Bell core (everything else the same), I haven't seen over 1.5 psi of pressure drop and I have seen over 230 degree temperature drops, even with 100 degree water temps. From the logs I have currently, it looks like the output temps are 10-15 degrees above the water temp.
    Time to run a dual evaporator van AC compressor and a heat exchanger in the water loop?

    :-)

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  7. #27
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    Time to run a dual evaporator van AC compressor and a heat exchanger in the water loop?

    :-)

    Brian
    I had my intercooler water go through a plate heat exchanger that was chilled by my AC. It only dropped the temp 10*. Used a larger plate heat exchanger and it didn't help.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Some good information presented here and has got me thinking about lots of things. I admit I was going to pull the trigger on the frozen boost stuff, but I am going to have a serious look at buying a Garrett core and custom building it to my application.

    There really is no middle of the road parts available. You either spend a couple hundred or over a grand. The Garrett core is about $400 and will require fab work to get it to completion but I can fully customize it. Ive got a tig and know guys that can weld aluminum.

    The point about too much flow is an interesting observation. Really hammers home that all parts must work together and may need some tweaking to dial it in.
    Last edited by 83rampage; 07-18-2018 at 02:03 AM.

  9. #29
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    I have my pump (Bosch Cobra unit) set up to push water through the heat exchanger first. It basically receives the return from the core and pushes it directly into the bottom of my 24x7x2 heat exchanger mounted behind the bumper bar. Didn't want it having to pull through the exchanger.
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  10. #30
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83rampage View Post
    Some good information presented here and has got me thinking about lots of things. I admit I was going to pull the trigger on the frozen boost stuff, but I am going to have a serious look at buying a Garrett core and custom building it to my application.
    .
    I think that is a good idea if your budget allows.
    Mike Marra
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  11. #31
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Probably the same problem you get when you remove the thermostat from an engine... If the water is moving too fast, it can't pick up enough of the heat from its surroundings. It's a basic law of thermodynamics. IF the fluid isn't in contact with the surface long enough, it can't transfer the heat energy. You may have had too much pump... That's not saying there wasn't efficiency issues with the intercooler...
    The issue I have with this is, the air traveling thru the intercooler flows much faster than the water, so by what you said, the air should never lose the heat energy.



    Reading AJ's MS log, I think his core got heat soaked real fast.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...=1#post1104183
    Last edited by tryingbe; 07-18-2018 at 11:06 AM.

  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    The issue I have with this is, the air traveling thru the intercooler flows much faster than the water, so by what you said, the air should never lose the heat energy.



    Reading AJ's MS log, I think his core got heat soaked real fast.
    But remember, water and air have vastly different thermal absorption properties. Air gains/loses heat almost instantly(example: hair dryer). How long does it take to boil a pot of water?

    Same principle applies to your radiator. At 70 mph there are huge volumes of air rushing through the fins of your radiator. The coolant isn't going through the tubes at 70 mph... A gas gains and loses heat energy almost instantly. Most fluids absorb and release way more thermal energy, but it takes more time to transfer that energy.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
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  13. #33
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    But remember, water and air have vastly different thermal absorption properties. Air gains/loses heat almost instantly(example: hair dryer). How long does it take to boil a pot of water?
    Good point.

  14. #34
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    I'll be honest, there was a nice link to a site posted by Warren S. a couple years ago which seemed to contradict most of what is being stated in this thread. That information suggested that passing fluid through a radiator/heat exchanger quickly wouldn't hinder the ability to cool. Perhaps I'm recalling it incorrectly? Does the engineering explained guy on youtube cover this?

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I'll be honest, there was a nice link to a site posted by Warren S. a couple years ago which seemed to contradict most of what is being stated in this thread. That information suggested that passing fluid through a radiator/heat exchanger quickly wouldn't hinder the ability to cool. Perhaps I'm recalling it incorrectly? Does the engineering explained guy on youtube cover this?
    I think that is true assuming that the heat exchanger is sufficient enough to shed heat at sufficient rate. If it's too small than flowing water though it too quickly will not let it cool enough. Heat transfer takes time.
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Heat transfer takes time.
    About an hour?
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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I think that is true assuming that the heat exchanger is sufficient enough to shed heat at sufficient rate. If it's too small than flowing water though it too quickly will not let it cool enough. Heat transfer takes time.
    A cursory search of the internet seems to indicate that one does not need to slow the flow of coolant through a heat exchanger for any reason. If anyone has contradictory information, I would gladly take it into consideration.

    Scroll way down to the Myths section of this link- http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/

    http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=11

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Thanks, Cordes. Makes sense.

    "A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures."


    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    A cursory search of the internet seems to indicate that one does not need to slow the flow of coolant through a heat exchanger for any reason. If anyone has contradictory information, I would gladly take it into consideration.

    Scroll way down to the Myths section of this link- http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/

    http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=11
    Last edited by contraption22; 07-19-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    But remember, water and air have vastly different thermal absorption properties. Air gains/loses heat almost instantly(example: hair dryer). How long does it take to boil a pot of water?.
    Technically is a bit more complex. First since the gas is approx 1000 times less dense than a liquid, there are 1000 x less molecules to heat or cool down. This is why a gas heats or cools quickly. The two properties working here are thermal conductivity and heat capacity. Thermal conductivity is how quickly the molecule/substance can transfer heat, for gases this basically follows the inverse molecular weight. Hydrogen gas is the best! Heat capacity is the amount of heat require to raise the temperature by one degree. Molar and specific heat capacity are two examples.

    Liquids are slow to fully transfer heat due to slower molecular diffusion in the liquid phase. It is on the order of 10000X slower with the same distance.
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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air/water intercooler sources

    Quote Originally Posted by chromguy View Post
    Technically is a bit more complex. First since the gas is approx 1000 times less dense than a liquid, there are 1000 x less molecules to heat or cool down. This is why a gas heats or cools quickly. The two properties working here are thermal conductivity and heat capacity. Thermal conductivity is how quickly the molecule/substance can transfer heat, for gases this basically follows the inverse molecular weight. Hydrogen gas is the best! Heat capacity is the amount of heat require to raise the temperature by one degree. Molar and specific heat capacity are two examples.

    Liquids are slow to fully transfer heat due to slower molecular diffusion in the liquid phase. It is on the order of 10000X slower with the same distance.
    Throw in a layer of aluminum between them.
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