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Thread: Air Filter Sizing

  1. #21
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I run a 3" intake on the Holset on my RT at 30+ PSI, I would think that should be large enough. My motor is requiring 1050 CFM of air.
    Doesn't your Holset have a 4" inlet on comp housing? (I believe you said HE341?)

    Personally, I would never run a smaller intake than the compressor housing size.........

    Robert Mclellan
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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    I went from the Stock T1(blowthrough) airbox to turbo hose with no filter at the track sucking hot underhood air, to a 3" with the biggest K&N Xtreme top cone filter in 3" still sucking hot underhood air on my S60 turboed 2.5 and picked up a solid mph and a tenth in the 1/4 with no other changes. I then added a 45 degree bend, to mount it where the battery used to be and built a cold air box around it and the SMEC. I then new my intake temps via the sensor in the SMEC. Not all the air was coming through the SMEC but if the SMEC was ambient then I new the air inside the box was ambient. On a holeset with a 16v you better be running 4" at least. I was going to run 4" on my GT30R with a ported 8v. Life and family have gotten in the way over the years and it's taken a long time to get it anywhere near being able to run but I still plan on that 4" setup. The more air with the least amount of vacuum you can run (boosted with ram air would be sweet) the better your turbo works.
    Did you notice a change in intake manifold charge temps with the inlet temps?
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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  3. #23
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    Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Doesn't your Holset have a 4" inlet on comp housing? (I believe you said HE341?)

    Personally, I would never run a smaller intake than the compressor housing size.........
    I could not fit 4" intake piping on my car, there is not enough room where the turbo is located on the stock manifold. I don't think I can fit a larger filter in the front nose of my car, not sure if I should just run no filter when i go to the track or one of those turbo guards on the end of my intake instead of the filter.


  4. #24
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I could not fit 4" intake piping on my car, there is not enough room where the turbo is located on the stock manifold. I don't think I can fit a larger filter in the front nose of my car, not sure if I should just run no filter when i go to the track or one of those turbo guards on the end of my intake instead of the filter.
    I would bet that assuming you had an adequate filter on there, you would be better served using 3" piping to a cold air source than sucking hot underhood air. An easy way to tell would be to put a tapping a port for a vacuum gauge near your compressor inlet. If there's no vacuum, you're golden.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  5. #25
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    So that's a 4" to 3" 90 coming of the comp housing?

    Robert Mclellan
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  6. #26
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I would bet that assuming you had an adequate filter on there, you would be better served using 3" piping to a cold air source than sucking hot underhood air. An easy way to tell would be to put a tapping a port for a vacuum gauge near your compressor inlet. If there's no vacuum, you're golden.
    I planned to use my 3" CAI that is on the car now, but in the current location, I can not fit a larger filter there is no space, I was looking to install the AEM 21-2039DK filter, that is 4 inches longer than my current one, but it wont fit in the same space as my current filter. That is why I started looking at a turbo guard for track use, I would much rather have the bigger filter all the time if I can figure out where to mount it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    So that's a 4" to 3" 90 coming of the comp housing?
    Yes it is.

  7. #27
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    Yes it is.
    Looking at the length of pluming and with 90 right in front of housing I would almost guarantee you would make more power with compressor housing open to air, regardless of temp.

    If you could fit a 4" shorty filter right on the housing I'd bet you would make more efficient power than sucking cooler air through the length of 3" you have right now.

    Will depend on how good your I/C is though.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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  8. #28
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Looking at the length of pluming and with 90 right in front of housing I would almost guarantee you would make more power with compressor housing open to air, regardless of temp.

    If you could fit a 4" shorty filter right on the housing I'd bet you would make more efficient power than sucking cooler air through the length of 3" you have right now.

    Will depend on how good your I/C is though.
    Interesting, this is something I may need to test to find out. I know Jackson runs a shorty filter on the compressor housing on all of his HE351 TIII cars, but I ran the calcs for that filter and it does not flow a lot of air so I would presume it is restricting, it came in with a calculate flow of 350CFM. I have a couple of buddies with that filter so I might just have to try it and see how it does. I was thinking having all of that cold air available to the turbo outside of the engine bay would be better than the hot air in the engine bay, even with a couple of bends that do restrict some. I am running E85 which should help with my intake temps. My IC is a spearco 1080 with polished end tanks which I have been told is a good unit. Sounds like I need to do some more testing.

  9. #29
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Seems it's the heater hoses/core that's in the way of a proper 4" connection..., which could then go right out of the hood to the high pressure area at the base of the windshield (maximum performance, minimum esthetics...), or continue to a properly sized filter/filter box, or cone filter...

    In order to make either of these things happen, the heater core lines need to get out of the way, which is where these nifty little items come into play: https://www.jegs.com/i/Earl&#39;s/361/16...AID=1710511724 https://www.jegs.com/i/Earls/361/709109/10002/-1

    I'm guessing at the size of 1/2", so the actual size fittings may vary, but you can see where I'm going with this, cut the heater core lines as short as practical, add the hard-line adapters then attach the Push-Loc connectors (90* would seem to be the choice), giving you the clearance needed to fit the 4" inlet/piping.

    Anyway, there's my .02, hope it helps!

    Mike
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  10. #30
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    Interesting, this is something I may need to test to find out. I know Jackson runs a shorty filter on the compressor housing on all of his HE351 TIII cars, but I ran the calcs for that filter and it does not flow a lot of air so I would presume it is restricting, it came in with a calculate flow of 350CFM. I have a couple of buddies with that filter so I might just have to try it and see how it does. I was thinking having all of that cold air available to the turbo outside of the engine bay would be better than the hot air in the engine bay, even with a couple of bends that do restrict some. I am running E85 which should help with my intake temps. My IC is a spearco 1080 with polished end tanks which I have been told is a good unit. Sounds like I need to do some more testing.
    The spearco 1080 is a good flowing I/C, but not the greatest at cooling the charge because of it's short pass. E85 will help with that though.

    HE341 has smaller compressor, so the efficiency isn't getting hurt as much as if you were running a 351.

    Having said that, I have yet to see a turbo running a smaller intake than comp housing not make more power when removed or upgraded. The cold air you are piping from the front is beneficial under slow cruising and initial launch, but once moving, the air in the E/C is moving as well and even if your giving up 10deg the compressor efficiency from the turbo not having to work against that restriction should be significant.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  11. #31
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    I know I mentioned this above, the only air filter that will fit directly onto the turbo is the K&N RU-2510. Shown below:
    https://www.knfilters.com/search/pro...x?prod=ru-2510

    My calculations show that this filter can only flow 350 CFM. In your opinion would I be better off running this filter and restricting my intake to the turbo or should I just run a screen over the turbo?
    I think I can do some actual testing to see what restrictions are there. If I measure the turbo drive pressure, I can see if the pressure is higher with one setup over another. The higher the drive pressure, the greater the restriction because the harder the turbo is working and the less exhaust that is exiting the waste-gate.

  12. #32
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    Seems it's the heater hoses/core that's in the way of a proper 4" connection..., which could then go right out of the hood to the high pressure area at the base of the windshield (maximum performance, minimum esthetics...), or continue to a properly sized filter/filter box, or cone filter...

    In order to make either of these things happen, the heater core lines need to get out of the way, which is where these nifty little items come into play: https://www.jegs.com/i/Earl&#39;s/361/16...AID=1710511724 https://www.jegs.com/i/Earls/361/709109/10002/-1

    I'm guessing at the size of 1/2", so the actual size fittings may vary, but you can see where I'm going with this, cut the heater core lines as short as practical, add the hard-line adapters then attach the Push-Loc connectors (90* would seem to be the choice), giving you the clearance needed to fit the 4" inlet/piping.

    Anyway, there's my .02, hope it helps!

    Mike
    Mucking around with my Shelby Z a few years ago I was looking at different ways of relocating the heater core lines. I never really came up with a "good" solution. One was going to be to take the HCAV box apart and run the lines internal to come out over by where the A/C evap core is.

  13. #33
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Mucking around with my Shelby Z a few years ago I was looking at different ways of relocating the heater core lines. I never really came up with a "good" solution. One was going to be to take the HCAV box apart and run the lines internal to come out over by where the A/C evap core is.

    1984 daytona/lazer used a different heater box under the dash
    if I remember correctly the heater hoses wee in a different place and the heater core could be changed under the dash by a total beginer without having to rip the dash out

  14. #34
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I know I mentioned this above, the only air filter that will fit directly onto the turbo is the K&N RU-2510. Shown below:
    https://www.knfilters.com/search/pro...x?prod=ru-2510

    My calculations show that this filter can only flow 350 CFM. In your opinion would I be better off running this filter and restricting my intake to the turbo or should I just run a screen over the turbo?
    I think I can do some actual testing to see what restrictions are there. If I measure the turbo drive pressure, I can see if the pressure is higher with one setup over another. The higher the drive pressure, the greater the restriction because the harder the turbo is working and the less exhaust that is exiting the waste-gate.
    350CFM at what relative pressure? Looking at the length of 3" piping and beds in your system I can guarantee you that there is no size of filter that will allow more CFM at the same relative pressure than that filter placed directly on the compressor housing. You're sucking through a straw, so your intake tract is the restriction, not the filter.

    I think you're on the right track thinking about the relationship between compressor spool efficiency vs exhaust flow efficiency and I agree that you could register a measurable difference depending on restriction.

    BtB runs at the track or on any device that can accurately measure MPH over distance should also show decernable differences.

    You could start with a screen as a base line and go from there. I'm not a fan of running turbo without filter, but if you try it make sure there's nothing lose floating around under the hood that could get sucked up lol

    There is also the HKS mushroom style filters that I remember some big HP 4 cyls running years ago.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Inch-JDM-...-/262040952713

    Couldn't find any CFM rating on them, but the word was they were less restrictive but didn't filter as well. May be just what the doctor ordered........

    Robert Mclellan
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post

    1984 daytona/lazer used a different heater box under the dash
    if I remember correctly the heater hoses wee in a different place and the heater core could be changed under the dash by a total beginer without having to rip the dash out
    Yeah, part of my idea came from the fact that non-A/C cars have a totally different heater hose routing.

  16. #36
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleD View Post
    I know Jackson runs a shorty filter on the compressor housing on all of his HE351 TIII cars, but I ran the calcs for that filter and it does not flow a lot of air so I would presume it is restricting, it came in with a calculate flow of 350CFM.
    This is prob the most usable piece of info in this thread at the moment.

    Jackson has most likely worked on more TIII Holset modified vehicles than anyone else on the Planet!

    He runs a (by your calculations) 350CFM filter right off the housing and I'm guessing he's not doing that for no good reason.

    Why not PM him and ask a few Q's

    Robert Mclellan
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    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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  17. #37
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Would a standard 1/2" copper 90* L fit tight enough to sweat onto those heater core barbs?

    How hot does underhood air actually get in a run down the strip? In the first few hundred feet there's little time for it to build and at the big end I'd assume that there's plenty of ambient coming in.
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  18. #38
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Would a standard 1/2" copper 90* L fit tight enough to sweat onto those heater core barbs?

    How hot does underhood air actually get in a run down the strip? In the first few hundred feet there's little time for it to build and at the big end I'd assume that there's plenty of ambient coming in.
    I would almost wager that this is exactly what Jackson found. He has run multiple TIII Holset builds at the track and I'm thinking he took a long CAI set up off one day and just slapped filter on housing and went faster.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
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  19. #39
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    Also, I know Jackson's green car made a lot of power last year using the K&N Filter. I will probably get one on order and then add a fitting to the end of the filter so I can connect my PCV system to the filter. Time to pull the complete 3" intake, that will really clean up my engine bay and simply things. There is no way to fit a 4" intake under my hood with how my pipes are run right now. I don't see a point in re-doing the heater core hoses.

  20. #40
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    Re: Air Filter Sizing

    I'll be watching this thread since I've always run the filter straight off the compressor housing on my little TD04.
    Jon J.

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