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Thread: MAP & CTS sensor questions

  1. #21
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    a .tpl file is a human readable (text) file that displays the table data. the .asm file is a human readable (text) file that contains the operating code. for the ecu to run it needs to have a machine readable file, i.e. the compiled binary (.bin) file that is created when you "compile" the tpl/asm. the .bin is what is downloaded to the ecu.

    when you edit the .bin file you are directly modifying the bytes in the file. mptune uses the .mpt file to tell it where the table bytes are located (similar to the old dcal .tbl file). the downside to modifying the bin is if changes are made to the code (i.e. the asm file) for new features/etc. that is why editing the tpl file and recompiling is/was the best way. since rob L is no longer actively supporting the turbonator code it may not be quite as necessary to work with the tpl files. also, the turbonator cals used a common code base (asm) and different (tpl) files so users could easily start with a compatible system (e.g. manual vs auto, stage 1 vs stage 4).
    OK, so what am I missing? I have a bunch of .tpl files. Never seen a .asm file in anything I've downloaded from Boost button? When I edit the .tpl file and try and compile it, MPtune goes looking for a file, instead of trying to compile the one I'm working on. It only gives me a .bin in the drop down, so it won't let me compile a .tpl file.

    I'm certainly no computer guy, maybe all this programming stuff is beyond me...

    BTW, thank you for trying to help. Sorry I'm asking such complete newby questions. I really do want to learn how to do this correctly. There just isn't much out there to show somebody like me how to do this...

    I would just send a couple of logs to Rob M. and let him rework it. He did the original tune. But I think we all know the situation he is in right now, and my tuning issues are the least of his worries. I certainly don't want to bug him in the middle of all he is going through. This is mostly why I'm trying to figure this out on my own...
    Last edited by 83scamp; 04-09-2018 at 11:04 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    when you download a turbonator cal from the code repository here it will be a zip file. in the zip file are all the various .tpl files as well as 1 .asm file. they all need to be extracted to the same directory. when you edit a .tpl file and click "compile" it MAY ask you for the location of the .asm file if it can't find one in the default directory. you probably will then be prompted to allow the assembler program to run. as that runs you should see some brief messages showing the progress. when done, there should be a .bin/.mpt file created in that same directory. this is what gets flashed/burned to the chip/ostrich. btw, i don't think you need to erase the ostrich first. mptune should automatically upload/read from the ostrich.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  3. #23
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    when you download a turbonator cal from the code repository here it will be a zip file. in the zip file are all the various .tpl files as well as 1 .asm file. they all need to be extracted to the same directory. when you edit a .tpl file and click "compile" it MAY ask you for the location of the .asm file if it can't find one in the default directory. you probably will then be prompted to allow the assembler program to run. as that runs you should see some brief messages showing the progress. when done, there should be a .bin/.mpt file created in that same directory. this is what gets flashed/burned to the chip/ostrich. btw, i don't think you need to erase the ostrich first. mptune should automatically upload/read from the ostrich.
    OK, Maybe that's my problem. I may not have unzipped everything to the same folder. I checked the zip file on here from boost button, and I do see the .asm file. When I get home tonight, I'll unzip that entire folder onto my laptop in a new folder and see if that helps.

    Also, just to clear it up, I'm not using an Ostrich. Just a socketed SMEC. I've been rotating two chips into the SMEC. I try one, if that doesn't work, I make a change(well, so I thought), and burn the second chip and install it. Kind of a PITA, but since I don't have a flashable SMEC, it's what I have to do...

    Thank you for being willing to help. At some point this will get through my thick skull, and I'll get it...

  4. #24
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    ...
    Also, just to clear it up, I'm not using an Ostrich. Just a socketed SMEC. I've been rotating two chips into the SMEC. ...
    that's brutal. you need a flashable setup.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  5. #25
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    that's brutal. you need a flashable setup.
    Yeah, but since nobody is making them right now, I don't have much choice....

    Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk

  6. #26
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    OK, I reloaded the BB stage IV zip file after I got home. I unzipped it, made the mods I wanted to, and it saved and compiled, so I think I'm making progress. I still can't get MPtune to erase a chip, but I can do it with the Moates software. It also has a neat little feature that lets me verify that what I was trying to put on the chip is actually there. It says it is...

    I'll try and go out in a little bit and install the chip and see if it makes things better.

    Big thanks to Wowzer & Aries_turbo (Cordes too for the support) for being willing to help out this newbie. I guess it just wasn't clicking before what to do to make this right. Make take a couple 2X4's up side my head, but I'll eventually get it hammered in there....

  7. #27
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    that's brutal. you need a flashable setup.
    I'm on the opposite side of the fence. Having to pull the chips forces you to slow down and think a bit IMO. I log EVERY CHANGE I make to a cal, along with the reasoning behind said change. I also log the temp and weather conditions if it's anything out of the ordinary for the time of yer. It's invaluable when trouble shooting later on. I'm not trying to boast at all, but it's the reason why the drivability of my Black Omni was on par with something you would get from the factory when I was trouble shooting a boost issue that ended up being a shot wiring harness. I learned the hard way that if the hardware isn't right all the software changes in the world aren't going to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    OK, I reloaded the BB stage IV zip file after I got home. I unzipped it, made the mods I wanted to, and it saved and compiled, so I think I'm making progress. I still can't get MPtune to erase a chip, but I can do it with the Moates software. It also has a neat little feature that lets me verify that what I was trying to put on the chip is actually there. It says it is...

    I'll try and go out in a little bit and install the chip and see if it makes things better.

    Big thanks to Wowzer & Aries_turbo (Cordes too for the support) for being willing to help out this newbie. I guess it just wasn't clicking before what to do to make this right. Make take a couple 2X4's up side my head, but I'll eventually get it hammered in there....
    I would stick to burning the chips with the Burn2 software until you get the hang of MP tune. When you have an idea of the changes effect the car, then it'll be easier to burn/flash with MPtune. Frankly, I just use the burn2 software for everything because it works for me.


    As an unsolicited tuning tip, I live in a small town in a fairly rural area. I can leave town, blast down a 55mph road while dragging the brakes at WOT for about 3/4mi, and cool the car off coming back in town before logging the results of my changes. For part throttle drivability changes, I will record things after a drive to work and back. If you have anywhere that allows for this, I can highly recommend it.

  8. #28
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Wouldn't you want to say they are larger? Seems like if you tell them they are smaller, it will add injector PW, not take it away??? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong...
    Woops, yes, you want to increase the injector size setting
    Regards,
    Miles

    DD '87 Sundance T1, 12PSI, SLH with rear disks
    '87 CSX #432

  9. #29
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    OK, I've been shooting PM's back and forth with Aries_turbo. Truck is still running stupid rich, but I made a little "progress" last night. By basically flattening out the cold enrichment curves, and setting the injectors in the tune to 60 pph, I got it to come off 10.0 AFR. It hovered about 11.0, which is still stupid rich, but at least it moved. It's all wrong off idle, when I blip the throttle, it hesitates, and backfires.

    I think I have changed so much, that I've screwed it up bad enough I'm going to start over. I'm going to try a stock 2.5 TI cal to see what it does. I'm also going to double check all 5V feeds and grounds to make sure I don't have an issue there. I know I checked the MAP & CTS, and had a good solid 5V there.

  10. #30
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Maybe check and make sure your sensor ground is good (black w/ light blue tracer), and also the grounds coming out of the computer. They way it works (factory) is the sensor ground wire comes out of the computer and runs to all the 5v and 8v sensors. Then there is a few computer ground wires that come out of the computer and go to ground. The computer grounds the sensors through these when turned on. So if you have a bad splice somewhere in the sensor grounds, or if you have a bad ground on the chassis for the computer, it can skew readings.

    When you make a cal in MP Tune, you save it first using the Save button, or the Save As function in the drop-down File tab. Then you have to click compile, and if the .asm is in the same folder as your cal, it should pop up a Windows warning box asking if you want to allow this program to run, click yes and it compiles. If the .asm is not in the same folder, it should pop up a box showing your folder but no .asm, you can then choose the folder that the .asm you want to use is located in (IE if you leave it in the T-SMECv16.9 folder, select that and it should show up). Double click the .asm and it will open it and continue the compiling process as usual.

    Once compiled, all you should have to do is click the lightning bolt icon in MP Tune and select the .bin you want to burn, and it will erase,burn and verify the chip automatically. You don't have to do anything else. It should be ready to run at that point.

    The important thing to remember is that it has to be compiled every time you make a change, otherwise the change does not get applied to the .bin.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  11. #31
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Maybe check and make sure your sensor ground is good (black w/ light blue tracer), and also the grounds coming out of the computer. They way it works (factory) is the sensor ground wire comes out of the computer and runs to all the 5v and 8v sensors. Then there is a few computer ground wires that come out of the computer and go to ground. The computer grounds the sensors through these when turned on. So if you have a bad splice somewhere in the sensor grounds, or if you have a bad ground on the chassis for the computer, it can skew readings.

    When you make a cal in MP Tune, you save it first using the Save button, or the Save As function in the drop-down File tab. Then you have to click compile, and if the .asm is in the same folder as your cal, it should pop up a Windows warning box asking if you want to allow this program to run, click yes and it compiles. If the .asm is not in the same folder, it should pop up a box showing your folder but no .asm, you can then choose the folder that the .asm you want to use is located in (IE if you leave it in the T-SMECv16.9 folder, select that and it should show up). Double click the .asm and it will open it and continue the compiling process as usual.

    Once compiled, all you should have to do is click the lightning bolt icon in MP Tune and select the .bin you want to burn, and it will erase,burn and verify the chip automatically. You don't have to do anything else. It should be ready to run at that point.

    The important thing to remember is that it has to be compiled every time you make a change, otherwise the change does not get applied to the .bin.
    That helps a bunch. That is what I kind of figured out last night after re-loading the zip file for the stage IV tune. Makes a lot more sense now. Thank you!

    I replied to your PM, I'll send you some info so we can try and get this darn thing figured out...

    I wasn't trying to get around having you help. I just didn't want to bug you given your health issues. Last thing I would want is be worried about some guys tune when I'm facing major surgery... If you are willing/able to help, I will send you everything I can.

  12. #32
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Yeah I don't mind, gives me something to do lol.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  13. #33
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    That helps a bunch. That is what I kind of figured out last night after re-loading the zip file for the stage IV tune. Makes a lot more sense now. Thank you!

    I replied to your PM, I'll send you some info so we can try and get this darn thing figured out...

    I wasn't trying to get around having you help. I just didn't want to bug you given your health issues. Last thing I would want is be worried about some guys tune when I'm facing major surgery... If you are willing/able to help, I will send you everything I can.
    Ok, I have some good news for a change(I think). Took everybody's suggestions and went home and tested every ground, every sensor circuit, and sensor voltage. Everything checked out fine. No issues.

    So, I loaded a stock 2.5 T1 cal, and it ran. Not real well, but it ran, and leaner than the stage IV cal but still way rich. So I loaded up the version 2 cal Rob had sent me and it went back to pig rich. So I went into the cal and lowered the "base fuel from MAP" curve in the lower half of vacuum. That did it! It started right up and actually went slightly lean at the 30 psi of fuel pressure I was running. So I turned it up slowly to 52 psi watching what the AFR did, and it hangs right around the 14.7 AFR area! Throttle response is good when I blip it. Only issue is a random misfire at idle, which did get a little better as I turned up the fuel pressure. Not sure if I can get rid of that or not.

    Anyways, I asked Brian and Rob to look at the logs I saved tonight, and the tune as I'm running it now to make sure I didn't do anything stupid. I'll update later this week after the weather improves and I can go for a drive.

    Big thanks to all that chimed in on this thread offering advice. I really appreciate it. It's what having a forum like this is all about.

    Maybe someday I'll actually understand this tuning stuff.... 😉

    Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk

  14. #34
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Glad to hear you have it working.

  15. #35
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Glad to hear you have it working.
    Thanks. Let's just say I'm cautiously optimistic...

    You were right though. A systematic,methodical approach is what you need to succeed. I have a bad habit of over-analyzing everything I do like this. For example, when I went to splice together the harness for this beast last year, I bet I studied the 83 & 89 FSM wiring diagrams for 2-3 weeks before I touched a wire. My FSM's have notes, and highlighter marks all over noting what I wanted to keep, where I needed to splice, etc.

    Before I decided to dive into this conversion, I think I read every thread in this section of the forum trying to absorb all the info I could(obviously didn't work as well as I'd hoped, or I wouldn't have started this thread), on ECU tuning. Most of it 2-3 times. Plus I probably read the Boost Button wiki a dozen times or more.

    I think a light finally came on in my thick skull(or I just got dumb lucky). My hope is that by posting my troubles, I help somebody else who is trying to learn this.

    This experience so far has definitely proven to me that you learn by doing. Several of the things mentioned in this thread, I know I've read looking back on it. For example, Wowzer reminding me that all the files need to be in the same folder. I know I read that somewhere, but it didn't click until he explained it again. Just like it took 3 guys explaining the flash process before it finally clicked with me.

    Another thing that hit me last night was I know I've read discussions on the importance of sensors in tuning, and it was mentioned that the MAP has the most influence. That was proven out in what I did last night. I made HUGE adjustments to the cold enrichment tables, and it made little difference in the AFR. But a slight tweak to base fuel to MAP table made a huge difference. It's all part of the learning process.

    That's why I love this forum, and why I think it will always be relevant. I know there has been a lot of debate on forum vs facebook/social media. I think this thread is proof of the value forums bring. On facebook, you will get opinions from every snot nosed kid that thinks he an expert. The internet gives them anominity. Folks will say anything there, right or not. Most of us here have a vested interest in correct information. We pay to keep this forum going. I know I have no issue paying to support it. Because, I know for a fact I get 1000 times my membership in helpful tech support and information. If I had to pay somebody to fix my truck.... Well, it wouldn't get fixed...
    Last edited by 83scamp; 04-11-2018 at 08:54 AM.

  16. #36
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Yeap, map and pumping efficiency tables are the main things. The rest is fine tuning.

    My dad has always taught me what his early mentor taught him: diagnosis is the most important part of the job.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  17. #37
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    Ok, after getting a few more SMEC's, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there is an issue with the logic board in my socketed SMEC. The truck actually runs better on a stock ecu, than mine. Still really rich, but not blowing black smoke...

    So, I'm going to socket one of these, and see what happens with the original tune Rob sent me.

    Hoping to update later on in the week.

    Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk

  18. #38
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    It seems you're not the only one having a bad SMEC issue. Iangoround just had one crap out on the O2 circuit.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  19. #39
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    I managed to pick up 4 more. After testing this weekend, one had a bad power board. The car wouldn't start at first. Swapped that out, and it ran fine. So now all 4 are good. A couple have busted cases, one really bad, but the electronics don't seem to be hurt.

    I'm going to socket two of them and keep two stock.

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  20. #40
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    Re: MAP & CTS sensor questions

    OK, a question for all you tuners. I was looking at the socketed logic board I have, and the solder joints on the back look pretty nasty. They were black, like they were oxidizing. My buddy that did the work solders circuits for a living, so I'm sure he did it correctly. I'm wondering if I used the wrong silicone to seal the board up? What do you guys use to waterproof a board after installing a socket? I used plain old CRC clear silicone. Is that the wrong stuff?

    Maybe I created my own problem with this board?

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