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Thread: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

  1. #1
    Garrett booster
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    1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Hi everyone. This forum seems to be full of great knowledge and am grateful it's available to learn from.

    I recently picked up a stock 1989 Caravan with the 5 speed.

    I have always wanted one of these and finally started looking for one and found one pretty quickly thanks to this forum and a facebook turbo dodge group. Without those I would still be looking for one.

    I am going to ask for advice from you guys because I'd like to minimize trial and error and take advantage of others successes and failures.

    A little background on me. I have been turning wrenches in one form or another since 1985. I was 11 years old when I first started picking up tools, tearing things apart and more often than not failing at putting it all back together. As time went on I gained more and more experience and before I knew it I was the resident expert for my friends and family.

    Currently I work for a major transit agency as a diesel mechanic. Here the diesel mechanic categorization basically means I fix busses. Most of our fleet is now hybrid of one form or another. The first generation coaches which we still have in service were put in service around 2004. They're all 60' articulated busses with Allison drive units in them with a Caterpillar C9 engine in front of them. Those pose quite a challenge being so old but I always enjoy a challenge. To be honest they're shoe horned in there and the layout is quite shitty to work on but they've been relatively reliable considering the severe service they see daily. The average mileage on them is 500k.

    Our newer coaches are all BAE powered and all new orders are also BAE. The most common ones I work on are 40' Orion busses that have a Cummins ISB 6.7L in front of them. The BAE drive unit isn't physically coupled to the engine power at all but the way they're packaged they look like a conventional transmission. The ISG "integrated starter generator" takes the place of a torque converter. That starts the engine and acts as a generator to power the propulsion unit that's bolted directly behind it. Very clean design and relatively reliable.

    Anyhow onto my Dodge build.

    My end goal is a street friendly sleeper. Sleeper status is pretty much a given considering it's a boxy van and I plan on keeping it relatively quiet and hiding the intercooler as much as possible. I would like the engine to have minimal lag but would like to see around 300whp or so. I know that won't be real easy but I have patience, money and once in a while time.

    I know one of the first things that has to go is that Makesubitchi turbo. From everything I have read it's a huge bottle neck to opening this thing up.

    Here's my problem. I don't know the science behind selecting a turbo. I understand what a turbo does and all that but have pretty much NO clue on how to spec one that will give me minimal lag yet have great potential when I whack the throttle and this is where I will need the most help. Turbo selection.

    Here's what I plan on doing.

    1. Socketing the SMEC. I already have an Ostrich and have been doing LOTS of reading on MPTune and MPScan. I'm no stranger to tuning things but am by NO means an expert. I know to make small changes and always revert back if things go too sideways.

    2. LSD for the A555. I am in the process of repairing the existing transmission. It's noisy as hell and the fluid looked like etch a sketch fluid. Suspect the counter shaft is wasted and have already sourced the bearing kit + a replacement countershaft from a member on here. The guy I bought the van from said it has a 6 puck clutch and during my brief drive I believe him. It's got a very narrow engagement window and if you slip it too much it squeals like a pig. I have had clutches like that in the past and once I get used to them they're fine on the street and will hold anything I throw at it. I have an A413 from a 1986 New Yorker turbo that I will be refreshing and doing whatever needs to be done on the differential end to make it take the van axles. From what I understand sometime in 1987 they went to bigger axles. I will probably put the auto in at some point when I'm done with the build just to run it a bit and see exactly how fast it will go down the 1/4 then put the stick back in.

    3. Injectors and fuel system. I could use some help here. I don't know if the stock lines will be an issue with my goal, what injectors would suit it the best etc etc.

    4. Intercooler. I have a stock intercooler from one of those Dodge Maserati things. I was planning on moving the radiator over a bit to make room for this unit. It's better than nothing and talk about stealth. Totally invisible unless the hood is opened! Thoughts on that unit?

    5. Turbo. I do have a perfectly good running 2.2 from my 1986 New Yorker. I was considering just putting that one on for now and see where I go with it. I don't think it's capable of reaching my goals from what I have read on here but it's got to be a substantial improvement over the Mitsubishi unit. Should I even bother making that turbo fit / work or should I just go ahead and get the turbo I will ultimately end up with in the end?

    6. Suspension. I don't really want to lower the front much but do want to address the rear squatting like crazy when under a load. I wonder if the stock air shocks from my New Yorker could be made to fit with minimal hassle? Fabrication is NOT my strong point.

    What do you all think? Am I missing anything here?

    Thanks for any and all input. If there's a good build someone's already done that's documented on here that had similar goals a link to it would be great.

    Here's a couple pictures of the van.


    **BTW, if anyone has that style steering wheel in Blue I'd like it! I took the one from my Yorker and put it in the van when fixing the column. I really don't like the one the 89' came with.
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  2. #2
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Awesome write up. Thanks for taking the time to post pics.

    As for the engine, if you port the exhaust manifold, and run 3" exhaust pipe that should help to minimize lag.

    A super 60 turbo would probably help you reach your goals while keeping lag to a minimum.

    "+40" injectors is what I would use. They're 52lb/hr units.

    I have been putting two piece intake manifolds on everything lately. Not only are they more aesthetically pleasing vs. the one piece IMO, but they do perform better. Porting one and adding a larger TB would go a long way to increasing performance also.

    Finally, I would probably install a larger IC now. It'll help to keep the pressure loss down and make the system much more efficient. Any of the stock style ICs will really hurt you at the boost levels you'll need to put out 300HP.

  3. #3
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    I will add, if you are going to take the time to socket your SMEC, go ahead and install the flash module instead. This will open up the opportunity to flash the SMEC without having to remove the chip. (I know the ostrich takes the place of the chip, but they aren't really designed for permanent install although many have. Some eventually have some issues from ot being left to the elements.)

    With a flashable SMEC it would allow you to take full advantage of a product like MPSciLink, if you so choose.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  4. #4
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    if you are going to all the trouble to put a 2 piece intake on there, put a 287 G head on there (1984-85) flows a little more than the 782 swirl head and can handle more boost on pump gas before knocking.

    i second what wayne is saying. if you socket the ecu, procure a flash module and install it and reseal the smec back up. makes tuning alot easier. dunno if there are any available at this moment.

    ive seen a prototype case that has a waterproof chip holder on the top of the case and uses a socket extension ribbon cable thats sealed inside the smec logic board to run to the chip holder up top. that helps keep things from the elements too.

    moates.net also makes a chip extender that uses a ribbon cable that you can install where the socket goes and waterproof that area down there and run the ribbon cable to a waterproof container up higher in the engine bay too. some have used modified tupperware/rubbermaid containers to hold their chips to keep them from dying from water ingestion too.

    in other words, for chip tuning, you have the flashable module (if available), the ostrich in a waterproof box, and 27SF512 chips in a waterproof box as tuning options.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  5. #5
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    300HP the EZ way.

    send head for porting. get PT lifters. beehive springs. hemi valve stem seals.

    Aquire 2 piece intake. preform some simple porting and polishing and open the neck up as much as you can.. get the neck welded if you can. 52 or 58mm T/B

    Port the exhast manifold to the top and sides of the gasket. and lay a T3 garret gasket on it. and open the exit to that size.

    Turbos for 300HP... a Larger T3 would get you their if you pushed it. super 60 and .63 housing.. Easier may be a T3/T4 in 46-50 trim.
    2.5 or 3 inch swing valve. 2.5 or 3 inch ( suggest three inch) exhaust .

    255lph fuel pump. +40% (52LB) injectors. flashable or chipped SMEC.

    intercooler.. stock IC's are going to be a restriction for 300HP. if not inhibit you getting there.
    Do you need A/C ? are you willing to look at AWIC ?

    ancillary items. 180* thermostat. good wires. AR51 plugs. clutch to handle the power. fuel pressure gauge. Wideband A/F guage. Poly motor mounts and bobble strut so you dont snap axles.

  6. #6
    turbo addict
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Want to follow along.

  7. #7
    turbo addict
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Should of checked out the Water/Air setup in the Woody van that the guy you bought the van from has. Frozenboost.com 's 600hp kit. Flows good. stays cool. Stealthy as all get out as you'll never see the i/c. Keeps a/c and stock rad. Oh look I have a pic.




    As said above. A "super60" turbo will get you there if you push it and lag is minimal. I had full boost in mine at 2500rpms with a stock head, 2 piece, ported exhaust manifold and 3" exhaust. A 46trim T4/T3 hybrid would be easier for the hp goal but is a little more involved.

    255lph pump and +40 52lb injectors.


    The Super60 turbo and +40 injectors were part of a Mopar Performance kit that made 300hp back in the day. Basically the turbo is a T3 size with a Super60 compressor wheel and a .63 a/r exhaust housing. So they called the kit the Super60. The +40 injectors are 40% larger than stock so that's while you'll see +40's and they even sold +20's.

  8. #8
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Oh thanks for the pic and info on the air/water intercooler. Sounds like the "super 60" turbo would suit my needs perfectly.

    Man has the price of +40's skyrocketed since the last time I bought a set. I found my old receipt on turbosunleashed and I paid $180 for a set in 2010 lol

    EDIT:I forgot to ask. Is the super 60 a direct fit in place of the Makesubitchi turbo other than the coolant lines, oil lines and grinding on the exhaust manifold for clearance?

  9. #9
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    You shouldn't need to grind on the exhaust manifold. The S60 will bolt right on with the exception of the lines as you've already stated.

  10. #10
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Does TU sell the super 60? Is it listed under another name? I really don't know turbo specifics.

    Thank you.

  11. #11
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    dont bother with the S60. get a to4e 46 trim compressor side with a .48 exhaust housing with a stock or stage 2 turbine wheel and port the wastegate hole as large as the puck can handle.

    then look on ebay for stock 04-05 srt injectors. probably cheaper than +40's and a little bigger (55lb at 58psi base pressure) as long as you can adjust the fuel battery offset (BATOFF) table in the ecu to match the injector.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  12. #12
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    oh yeah.... .youll need ev6 to ev1 injector harness adapters too. they are cheap on ebay too..... ev6 to the injector, and ev1 to the factory harness.

    (anticipatory) yes i know the srt4 injectors are high impedance, the drivers for low impedance (peak/hold) work fine for high impedance as long as you adjust for latency (BATOFF table)

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  13. #13
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    dont bother with the S60. get a to4e 46 trim compressor side with a .48 exhaust housing with a stock or stage 2 turbine wheel and port the wastegate hole as large as the puck can handle.

    then look on ebay for stock 04-05 srt injectors. probably cheaper than +40's and a little bigger (55lb at 58psi base pressure) as long as you can adjust the fuel battery offset (BATOFF) table in the ecu to match the injector.

    Brian
    Why go through all the extra hassle for the hybrid cover when the S60 will bolt right up? If his goal was anything north of 300HP I would agree. Do you think the E cover is that much of a benifit? I've used one of Cindy's B cover turbos which are based off of the old FM attempt at a bolt on B cover and while they do take a little fab work, they're pretty decent and a much better compromise than the E cover in my experience. I haven't used a S60 before though, so I'm interested to hear you're take on this. IIRC Clark ran something similar years ago and raved about it too.

  14. #14
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Why go through all the extra hassle for the hybrid cover when the S60 will bolt right up? If his goal was anything north of 300HP I would agree. Do you think the E cover is that much of a benifit? I've used one of Cindy's B cover turbos which are based off of the old FM attempt at a bolt on B cover and while they do take a little fab work, they're pretty decent and a much better compromise than the E cover in my experience. I haven't used a S60 before though, so I'm interested to hear you're take on this. IIRC Clark ran something similar years ago and raved about it too.
    oops... my bad..... forgot about the compressor cover.

    i too have used the cindy easy turbo. hence why i forgot about the compressor cover.

    either way though, 2 silicone 90's or some tig work takes care of the compressor cover.....

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  15. #15
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    My next E cover will have a nice tig welded transition off of it. It'll probably go into an AWIC if I had to guess.

  16. #16
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    Should of checked out the Water/Air setup in the Woody van that the guy you bought the van from has. Frozenboost.com 's 600hp kit. Flows good. stays cool. Stealthy as all get out as you'll never see the i/c. Keeps a/c and stock rad. Oh look I have a pic.




    As said above. A "super60" turbo will get you there if you push it and lag is minimal. I had full boost in mine at 2500rpms with a stock head, 2 piece, ported exhaust manifold and 3" exhaust. A 46trim T4/T3 hybrid would be easier for the hp goal but is a little more involved.

    255lph pump and +40 52lb injectors.


    The Super60 turbo and +40 injectors were part of a Mopar Performance kit that made 300hp back in the day. Basically the turbo is a T3 size with a Super60 compressor wheel and a .63 a/r exhaust housing. So they called the kit the Super60. The +40 injectors are 40% larger than stock so that's while you'll see +40's and they even sold +20's.

    Do you know what specific kit /intercooler he used? im looking at fitting one very soon.

  17. #17
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    dont bother with the S60. get a to4e 46 trim compressor side with a .48 exhaust housing with a stock or stage 2 turbine wheel and port the wastegate hole as large as the puck can handle.

    then look on ebay for stock 04-05 srt injectors. probably cheaper than +40's and a little bigger (55lb at 58psi base pressure) as long as you can adjust the fuel battery offset (BATOFF) table in the ecu to match the injector.

    Brian
    Interesting to hear different points of view on this. So what's this talk about the compressor side? What do you mean by using two 90's or cutting / welding it? Cutting / welding isn't really going to be an option here as I have virtually zero fabrication skills and almost no desire to learn it. I have very little time but don't mind spending some money to get something that will just fit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    oh yeah.... .youll need ev6 to ev1 injector harness adapters too. they are cheap on ebay too..... ev6 to the injector, and ev1 to the factory harness.

    (anticipatory) yes i know the srt4 injectors are high impedance, the drivers for low impedance (peak/hold) work fine for high impedance as long as you adjust for latency (BATOFF table)

    Brian
    On the injectors I like the idea you have. I can mess with the Batt table if it's available in MPTune. I'm assuming you adjust it to get the afr's close it idle then go from there since we're going from low impedance to high impedance?

  18. #18
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Quote Originally Posted by firehawk618 View Post
    Interesting to hear different points of view on this. So what's this talk about the compressor side? What do you mean by using two 90's or cutting / welding it? Cutting / welding isn't really going to be an option here as I have virtually zero fabrication skills and almost no desire to learn it. I have very little time but don't mind spending some money to get something that will just fit.
    the stock compressor cover has that angle on it to clear the cyl head. sometimes guys try to cram large compressor wheels in the stock cover by machining it out to fit the larger wheel. dont do it. it doesnt work well. laggy and hot.

    then there are the FM/FWDperformance larger cover that has a angle on the output that almost clears the cyl head. its better than the stock cover but still is a bit of a compromise cause still need a slight bend on the first bend to clear the cyl head.

    then there is the full size T04E cover that is the designed cover for that compressor wheel. it is much larger. it has a compressor outlet that is aimed straight into the cyl head.

    you can cram 2 tight angle 90 deg bends on the end of it to clear the cyl head but you reduce flow that way. i know that cindy sells a 46trim to4e with a custom cover that should fit. they will also weld on an elbow to clear the head.

    On the injectors I like the idea you have. I can mess with the Batt table if it's available in MPTune. I'm assuming you adjust it to get the afr's close it idle then go from there since we're going from low impedance to high impedance?
    yes. you can edit the BATOFF or FuelBatteryOffset table in MPTune. you are supposed to set it with values from the injector manufacturer. sometimes you have to adjust this table to get large injectors to idle well even if the pumping efficiency table is dialed in correctly.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  19. #19
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Sorry for the lack of updates but it was purely due to the lack of parts lol.

    So I tore into the transaxle about a month ago and as I suspected the counter shaft surface was hosed. I picked up a replacement counter shaft from a member on here **THANK YOU** and all is good on the trans internals. The one thing that stuck in my mind was the amount of metal shavings on the magnet. It was a lot. I didn't think the wear on the counter shaft + bearing would be anywhere near enough to equal what was on the magnet. That led me to trying to get the pin out of the differential to see how the spiders / spider pin looked. That roll pin would NOT budge! I put the spider pin in my press and forced it out. I am glad I did as the pin was almost 1/2 way cut through!

    Needless to say I was either going to stick another weak link in there or step up to a LSD. I chose the latter and ordered a Quaife. That took approx a month to get here.

    I got it in and finally got to actually drive the van for the first time since I got it.

    The good news is it drives great *trans*, quiet and shifts excellent. *pats self on back* I was a little worried about the dog teeth as they had some wear but it seems they work just fine. *phew*

    Anyhow took it for a trip up and down I5 to Seattle. What a blast it is to drive with just the Grainger valve the PO had installed.

    While doing the trans work I couldn't help but notice all the oil leaks on the back of the engine.

    My plan is to next socket the SMEC and get it running good before getting into any go fast mods.

    Also will be fixing all the little things that don't work in the van. Power door locks, extremely slow to roll up and down windows, cluster illumination etc etc etc.

    Once I have the van running properly on the Ostrich and all the other stuff fixed I will make a determination on exactly what turbo I will choose, get the parts all in hand, pull the head / turbo and get things sealed back up good as there's a bunch of oil all over the back of the engine.

    I will post substantial updates as they happen and probably many many more questions regarding turbo options + what I'll need to do to make it fit.

    Thanks again for all the great responses.
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  20. #20
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 1989 Caravan project street sweeper

    Productive day. Power windows were intermittent. Power mirrors totally dead. Power door locks totally dead. The previous alarm installer butchered the harness in the door jam to intercept the power door locks. Terrible job they did.

    They did such a poor job re-wrapping the harness and it left some insulation exposed to the elements. Needless to say time and sun took it's toll. Lots of cracked insulation, water damage and a few totally broken wires. I did a quick patch to get things working again. Best I can tell to get to the dashboard side I'll either have to pull the dash or pull the e-brake assy out.

    Does anyone know if the door harness actually unplugs under the dash somewhere? If so I'll keep my eyes out for a good used one. If not I'll do a proper repair if I ever have to pull the dash, e-brake or if my half assed repair fails again.

    I have to say until I can get a stand alone data monitor / logger the Snap On I have does a great job. I'm impressed with the refresh rate if I only monitor a couple parameters at a time. Very fast!
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