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Thread: 4 hours of porting today, TU Header

  1. #1
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    4 hours of porting today, TU Header

    Perfect day for porting, sunny so I can see down the runners and 80 degrees out. Set up my station, hot in the porting zone and didn't stop till it was done. The road race 86 S has an old Weld Ell TU Header, I'm hoping the cast peice will be a nice upgrade and spool the GT 30 a lil quicker. Header would be done buuut, this one didn't get quite enough molten metal in the casting process, I have to have it machined flat at the head face. I'm gonna bill Chris for that 🤑
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    Last edited by 2.216VTurbo; 01-25-2018 at 07:56 PM.

    AJ (no More Alan) 84 Rampage RT TIII/568 Quaife 87 GLHS dealer optioned Red 16V Masi/568/Quaife
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  2. #2
    Authorized Vendor Turbo Mopar Vendor Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Our cast iron hybrid header is a step design. Hopefully you only port matched and polished otherwise you just destroyed one of the main benefits of this header. Looks nice though. We usually reface flanges after port matching due to unintentional scarring which inevitably occurs.

    Chris-TU

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  3. #3
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Nice work AJ. That looks pretty nice.

  5. #5
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    👍👍👍Looking good

  6. #6
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Do you have data logs on the GT30 before for comparo?

    Be interesting to see what difference you just made

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  7. #7
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Love that work station, keeps the grit outside, it WAS indeed a nice day, good light.

    I met up with the SoCal BSA Owners Club for a ride from the LA Zoo out Mulholland to Sepulveda Pass and back to Bob's Big Boy in Toluca Lake.

    Gorgeous day, rode a friends 1952 Panther 650 single, forty year old tires, hardtail, first year model when they replaced the girder front end with telescopic forks
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  8. #8
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Do you have data logs on the GT30 before for comparo?

    Be interesting to see what difference you just made
    The data is that I had to wait for it to respool after every shift/closed throttle event during the last track day a few weekends ago, it was painful. I tinkered with advancing the cam a couple degrees but it didn't help much. Still had a great day at the track with my best lap times ever(in that car) but 240 degree water temps were frustrating too. The next weekend I found a big boost leak in the vacuum harness, not an 1/8" line but the big 1/4" line had separated where hard plastic joins the rubber line. Ooops, that'll make you wait for boost for sure

    It's not gonna be a valid B2B comparo because I'm gonna disassemble the turbo and see if I can't ruin it too with my Dremel I don't expect as much cutting will be needed as with a Garrett but probably still a couple hours of porting. Also gonna change the valve springs and refresh the head. It was heavily ported 6-8 years ago but I did it before I owned the car for Forza (for beer and Pizza) so I might put some more time in now that it's my car

    AJ (no More Alan) 84 Rampage RT TIII/568 Quaife 87 GLHS dealer optioned Red 16V Masi/568/Quaife
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  9. #9
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor ajakeski's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Nice pile of slivers you have there.

  10. #10
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Our cast iron hybrid header is a step design. Hopefully you only port matched and polished otherwise you just destroyed one of the main benefits of this header. Looks nice though. We usually reface flanges after port matching due to unintentional scarring which inevitably occurs.

    Chris-TU
    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread
    What he is saying is, the log part is cast with different inside diameters as it moves toward the turbo inlet, to help move the extra gases added by each cyl while maintaining velocity across the cyls, and also to help prevent reversion to some extent I would guess. If you made the inside of the log section the same size all the way through, it will not, in fact, help your spool much at all as you have destroyed the very part of the design that promotes quicker spooling.

    I would guess that opening up the individual runners and turbo inlet and polishing would not affect anything adversely, as long as the internal stepped design was retained. Remember, quality of flow is as important as quantity...
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  11. #11
    Authorized Vendor Turbo Mopar Vendor Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread
    Sorry, for the delayed response. It took me a while to find the flow bench data and photographs off my old hard drive.

    I completely agree with you regarding the removal of sharp edges, casting flash, port matching and polishing. This procedure should be completed before installing any cast product for enhanced efficiency and performance. I also commend you on taking the time to do this. I wish everyone who purchased our header would invest the time as well to maximize performance gains. The step design, however, should not be tampered with. Here's the core box for the header. It's difficult to tell with just a photo, but, the passageway diameter increases slightly at each port.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Pat Melendy and I watched Junkyard Ed in Pomona, CA flow a stock factory manifold, ported factory exhaust manifold, Alabama Man log header, TU SS Hybrid header and TU Cast Iron Hybrid Header. Cast version was flow benched a few years later and I am still looking for those pictures. Hopefully Pat has them. The results were as follows:

    Stock factory manifold- 325 lbs per min
    Ported factory exhaust manifold- 335 lbs per min
    Alabama Man log header- 355 lbs per min
    TU Stainless Steel Hybrid header (Gen 1)- 400 lbs per min
    TU Cast Iron Header (Gen 2)- 484 lbs per min

    Click image for larger version. 

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    We went through a few different Gen2 core box designs until we settled on the one that flowed the best. If you still feel like the facts hold no merit though I urge you to contact Brian Slowe or Wayne Hemingway regarding his TU Hybrid Header. His boost was initially uncontrollable which required him to enlarge the wastegate port. If this happens with your set up we do have 38mm pucks in stock for the modification necessary.

    Your header really looks great Alan. The point of my post was that I didn't want others to read it and to start hogging out their headers thinking they will improve the flow. Port matching and polishing is all that's required. Another concern I had with your set up is will you be using a Gen 1 DBB Turbo with a Gen 2 TU Cast header?

    Chris-TU

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  12. #12
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    Header would be done buuut, this one didn't get quite enough molten metal in the casting process, I have to have it machined flat at the head face. I'm gonna bill Chris for that 🤑
    I've ported plenty of stock manifolds with bad core shift that left the edge thinner than that. Should have no problem sealing at all.

    Besides, just looking at the pics, you scraped up the flange pretty badly anyway and it looks like it needs resurfaced just from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    Lol, yeah keep telling yourself its gonna flow better with all the sharp edges and casting flash and I've ruined it by modifying the inside shape If I thought your concerns had any merit at all, I'd flow it against the one stock header I have left Don't get me wrong Chris I think your cast header is a great piece, probably the finest component that TU has ever produced but I also know that I can make it better with a few hours of effort which was the point of this thread
    Overall flow would have nothing at all to do with what Chris is even talking about. The entire point of a step tube design is to enhance port velocity as much as possible while giving the extra flow. Of course porting would increase flow, but you could hurt the velocity was his point. I doubt you did, but I believe Chris was just chiming in to warn anyone looking at your thread for porting advice.

    I've uploaded a pic of my TU header. After porting and then clearancing for use the the BMF intake, the area that I pointed out was at least as thin as what you have pointed out on yours if not thinner. It sealed just fine.
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  13. #13
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    hope some time was spent on getting a decent short turn radius on it.


    The exit of the compressor housing needs attention on a GT30R.

  14. #14
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    A.J., if you have the time, would you be able to flow test your header before install?
    I think your work looks great, and it would be hard to tell from the pictures if you changed the internal dimensions enough to hurt the flow. But, the test would show if there's gains and by how much.
    I see Chris' point though, another enthusiast without the same skill set could really botch up a product which is pretty darn good out of the box, thinking that removing more material is a good thing.

    My combo way outflowed my ability to bypass around the turbine and i had uncontrollable boost creep. Maybe with your setup (being 5spd) you'll be shifting often enough to keep boost creep in check? You may want to incresse your wastegate port while you are in there.

    Looking forward to hearing your results when back together.

    Which turbo is it, I think you said GT30, but missed if its a 3071 or 3076?
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  15. #15
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    I'd like to see pics of the turbo end of the manifold properly preped and finished ..
    especially the inside radius to the flange

  16. #16
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Just how many beers were sacrificed in order to finish the porting ????

  17. #17
    turbo addict moparzrule's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    By the looks of how many times the carbide bit skipped out of the ports and hit the flanges, I'd say none of them.

  18. #18
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    Quote Originally Posted by moparzrule View Post
    By the looks of how many times the carbide bit skipped out of the ports and hit the flanges, I'd say none of them.

    That would be zero times that the carbide bit touched the head face side of the flanges MoparzFool. One underlying theme I've noticed in your posts over the years is that you think your the only one who knows how to do sh!t. Have you ever wondered why you rub TM members the wrong way? Probably don't really care tho right? We're all just hacks and you're a God anyway...

    Wayne the 86S this header is going on needs to be on a road rally Feb 14th, some if my Porsche buddies have been talking smack and the rally Forza is organizing will be the perfect opportunity for some smackdowns. They don't mean any harm, they're just uninitiated ;-) Not likely gonna be time (Or motivation ) to do any flow testing to show what I already know any way.

    As to changing the step design, I don't know why anyone would try to do that, or if its even possible? What would I have to do, hog out the #1 (furthest) runner and leave the others untouched? And yes a bunch of those cast iron slivers were created addressing the short side radious at the turbo flange. IMO there is some substantial gains to be had from that area of the header. It's not quite done BTW, when I get done with the porting on the head I'll make a template that I'll transfer the dimensions onto the header with. Same with the turbine housing.

    Back to the garage now, running out of days before the must run again deadline.

    AJ (no More Alan) 84 Rampage RT TIII/568 Quaife 87 GLHS dealer optioned Red 16V Masi/568/Quaife
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  19. #19
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    AJ, I was going to kid you about misspelling porting but not now

    I don't want a public "tar and feathering" !!!

    Too old and feeble.

    Looks good !

    Thanks
    Randy


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  20. #20
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: 4 hours of poring today, TU Header

    I understand A.J. it always seems the way that we are doing stuff like this under a deadline that doesn't allow for things like that flow testing.
    My interest would be in know how much improvement you get, or it capable by spending a little time working with already a high flowing product. Wonder if yours would have been pushing closer to 500 #/min. You already will be gaining the difference of at least 84#/min just from the 2 designs.

    Should be enough to put some snobby Porsche owners in their place?

    I'm considering getting another TU header for Slug's eventual rebuild. So I'll be keeping an eye on your results and final impression.
    Wayne H.

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