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Thread: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

  1. #21
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Sure you would have to but that would be simple enough.. just make a bracket that comes off the valve cover bolts or off the block somewhere. Likely not worthwhile unless you are having trouble lighting off your mixture.

  2. #22
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    I always knew HEP and distributor is not accurate because whenever I use a timing gun to set base timing, the timing mark always jumps between 10 to 14 and never settle on 12.
    I find that strange, and stranger yet, that no one has come on and posted differing results.

    I've never had an issue timing at 12, 13,14,15 or anywhere else I wanted to with the stock distributor and HEP. Any time I see timing jumping all over usually means distributor and/or HEP is shot..........

    Robert Mclellan
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  3. #23
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    I've had them both ways. HEPs which bounce 4-5*s either way, and HEPs that are rock solid.

    ETA: I probably shouldn't state it like that. It could have been slop from anywhere in the system. I guess you're actually seeing the total amount of lash in the system when you set the timing.

  4. #24
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    AJ makes a good point. No . . . . he PROVES it. Between belt slap, gear lash, and loose rotor rivets, the ignition system is way too imprecise.

    Could set belt tension with a strobe light to minimize slap, select timing gears for minimal lash, and, of course re-melt those rotor rivets. Timing shaft bushing/journal clearances can be tightened too. Maybe hard chrome the two shafts - gear sets and journals.
    John Laing

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  5. #25
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    I'm glad you gained power on your set up Harry but with changing turbos and trim on the compressor wheels, I think your 'test' is invalid. You can't really make a case for a before and after power level on ignition systems when you've changed turbos IMO

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  6. #26
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    I’ve been proposing this issue for YEARS now.
    I still don’t possess the ability to make it happen, but surely could have become the direct-fire GURU by now!

    The issue we ran into again and again was with getting the SMEC to “understand” the crank/cam sensor signals.

    This is a dream of mine, and I’ve seen many people with MS systems that have incredible COP setups. It makes the 8V engine look so different! It’s awesome!!!


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  7. #27
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I've had them both ways. HEPs which bounce 4-5*s either way, and HEPs that are rock solid.

    ETA: I probably shouldn't state it like that. It could have been slop from anywhere in the system. I guess you're actually seeing the total amount of lash in the system when you set the timing.


    This has been my experience as well;

    Since I've had Rock solid system operation, any time I saw one "not behaving" I had to know why. Usually was the plastic rivets in that style of dissy. Next was A/M HEP's and HEP condition/ wiring, which I Only used Mopar and was always aware of condition, so never had that issue myself. Then worn out distributors and I-shafts as well as improperly tensioned belts ect.

    Bottom line, Something else was at fault and the system itself, when everything is working Properly was fine.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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  8. #28
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    I'm glad you gained power on your set up Harry but with changing turbos and trim on the compressor wheels, I think your 'test' is invalid. You can't really make a case for a before and after power level on ignition systems when you've changed turbos IMO
    Agreed, although it's been stated that the previous turbo was a T04e and Should have been more efficient, that turbo obviously had issues as it eventually seized IMS.

    I think what is Really proving here is Exactly what some of us have known and said from the beginning;

    Most of the problems people run into building these cars, are from Lack of attention to detail, and never getting the Basics sorted out. So the reason one build makes X amount of power and another that seems very similar make X amount Less will usually come down to the one have more of the set-up working Properly vs 10 other things wrong that Never get sorted out because a bunch of people on the net said they weren't important.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  9. #29
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    on using crank & cam sensors , going distributorless , r/t motors and I shaft -oil pump failures ..
    I think one of the big reasons the R/T's have the oil pump drive failures is the distributor delation

    I've personally seen what bad gear engagement with an oil pump drive can do / cause , be caused by in other motors and it really fubar's the engine
    to long an oil pump or dist shaft and kiss the pump good bye with the motor
    so with the dist drive lug , shaft , housing and most importantly the distributor clamp holding the housing down on the block .. WHAT's keeping the oil pump drive gear from climbing and dropping off the gear driving it ???
    NOTHING .. now
    like runing a hand file over each gear tooth and wondering why they keep wearing away ...
    The gear is pinned to the shaft...which is, btw, very short...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    to use the crank sensor and cam sensor then use the distributor to actually deliver the spark energy from the coil to the plugs .. total waste of time

    sure the sensors would give you great accuracy in signal timing to the ecu .. but to still use the bounc-ie jounc-ie belt/i-shaft/pump/dist drive , you still haven't improved actual spark timing accuracy to the cylinders
    (IF by keeping the dist the intent was to still use the cap/rotor and wires)
    The point of going to later-model cam/crank sensor is so that the Neon code can be ported to our computers and allow use of a coil pack.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  10. #30
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post

    I think what is Really proving here is Exactly what some of us have known and said from the beginning;

    Most of the problems people run into building these cars, are from Lack of attention to detail, and never getting the Basics sorted out.
    Agreed.

    One reason I went to doing calibrations one on one in person was due to long sessions of phone troubleshooting and then finding out the individual whom I sold a cal too did not check distributor timing, cam timing, fuel pressure, had beat plugs, dead cylinders etc.

    Wasn't worth the hassle.

    Gary


    Working on clearing the decks.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    I'd also like to add that sometimes the placement of the timing marks on the torque converter or flywheel can be off a few degrees as well.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    Agreed.

    One reason I went to doing calibrations one on one in person was due to long sessions of phone troubleshooting and then finding out the individual whom I sold a cal too did not check distributor timing, cam timing, fuel pressure, had beat plugs, dead cylinders etc.

    Wasn't worth the hassle.

    Gary
    Very similar experience with customers vehicles I worked on. I use to look forward to solving any problem I could, and with these cars it was so simple most of the time because most problems were either owner caused, or other mechanics that had worked on the vehicle.

    #1 issue that I saw (other than oil condition/ running regular fuel), mechanic installed timing belts wrong. Worse yet, not willing to accept that they could have made a mistake and unwilling to dble check their work!

    The problem was After I had straightened out all of the current problems and sent the owner off with a verbal or written list of things to watch for/ proper maintenance ect. I would see the vehicle come back years later completely neglected, 20,000kms on oil it had left with. Running regular fuel and bleed in line for more boost. Ect Ect

    I dealt with it fine for a lot of years, but it slowly wore at me. What good is anything I'm doing when 90% of this is self inflicted and I Can't seem to be able to Help the person Help themselves!??

    This eventually made me more selective of which vehicles I would work on and which ones would have to fend for themselves..........

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  13. #33
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Basics are invaluable, and must be checked quite regularly IMHO.

    The number of reported issues varies so dramatically when simple settings are not right; when inferior components or fuels OR oils(viscosity and/or quality) as well.

    Quite frequently I’ve really helped people with advice on going to the quality fuel stations, rather than wherever the price is lowest. lol

    On another note; I’ll be in touch Shadow. Got the 83lb/hr injectors. So the setup should be easier to dial in.
    But first I still have to get it into roller, and get the cage in.
    Good times.


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  14. #34
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by knownenemy View Post
    Basics are invaluable, and must be checked quite regularly IMHO.

    The number of reported issues varies so dramatically when simple settings are not right; when inferior components or fuels OR oils(viscosity and/or quality) as well.

    Quite frequently I’ve really helped people with advice on going to the quality fuel stations, rather than wherever the price is lowest. lol

    On another note; I’ll be in touch Shadow. Got the 83lb/hr injectors. So the setup should be easier to dial in.
    But first I still have to get it into roller, and get the cage in.
    Good times.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sounds good Donnie, and just to be clear;

    Not saying that what tryingbe has shown here isn't worth doing, just saying that the factory components aren't what's going to hold you back from making great power IF you have them working properly.

    Having said that, for those that have not had good success running with the factory set-up, Eliminating as many of the components that are known to have issues may just be the way to go

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  15. #35
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    So much good stuff said here... This forum needs a like button for posts!

  16. #36
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by chromguy View Post
    Yes you could this would only replace the HEP function.
    But, the problem of slop in the distributor relates to the timing of the HEP signal. Not the ignition timing itself. The distributor contacts are together for a relatively long crank angle - they have to be or you wouldn't be able to vary the timing at all!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by A_ Kelley View Post
    Umm.. rethink that a moment.. the rotor and cap is a rotary switch essentially. It does not affect timing more than a few picoseconds as long as the rotor is pointed at the terminal within several degrees. However, the reason for getting rid of the cap and rotor would be higher spark energy and I don't think that waste spark setup will deliver as much as individual coil on plug setup.. if you're going to go all out, why not go all the way out? Plus that eliminates all plug wires except the coil boot. Just my thoughts.
    Yes, this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I find that strange, and stranger yet, that no one has come on and posted differing results.

    I've never had an issue timing at 12, 13,14,15 or anywhere else I wanted to with the stock distributor and HEP. Any time I see timing jumping all over usually means distributor and/or HEP is shot..........
    I did on my car originally - the shutter wheel was loose, so I drilled it and screwed it on with nylon screws. No problems after that. I think most of the slop is in the shutter, usually.
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  17. #37
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor supercrackerbox's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I did on my car originally - the shutter wheel was loose, so I drilled it and screwed it on with nylon screws. No problems after that. I think most of the slop is in the shutter, usually.
    Similarly, I rebuilt a distributor for my Daytona. I used aluminum rivets for the shutter wheel and replaced the shim to eliminate up/down shaft play, and replaced all the roll pins, and after that my timing light was very solid.

  18. #38
    turbo addict
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    when you guys go to coil on plug what coils do you use?

    I'm wondering about the coil to plug connection - is it anything like a ford mod motor's set up ?
    - that uses a coiled "spring" as the conductor in the coil boot

    and I've learned from my own experience with my 5.4 truck that's not the best arrangement

    as I'd gone through enough ford coils (16) to never want to buy another from ford I went to the msd coils

    these used the same spring conductor as the stock coils
    BUT , there's an upgrade for the ford coils - from Granatelli racing)

    they supply a spiral section of 3/8's inch stainless steel cable , YES 3/8 steel cable
    - with regular style plug wire terminals at each end and a R-F suppressor on the cable
    they also include a set of silicone boots instead of rubber ones
    (you can get these for all mod motor apps - if that's in any way applicable at 140 to 200 bucks for 8)

    once installed I noted a definitely crisper throttle response - I could actually "crack" the throttle with some authority over it
    AND most notably I noted a distinct "bounc-ie" feeling had gone away
    I think it was the "springs" reacting to the current going through them
    - if you've ever seen a cable move when high voltage goes through it you might understand what I seemed to be feeling

  19. #39
    turbo addict
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    2.5 years ago we talked about this.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...65#post1091165

  20. #40
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: The inaccuracy of HEP and distributor is causing you to lose power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    when you guys go to coil on plug what coils do you use?
    Several of us are using GM LS coils, which are a CNP setup. Others are using Neon coil packs. And some Neon guys have upgraded to COP's from Honda K-series.
    Mike Marra
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

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