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Thread: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

  1. #1
    turbo addict
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    The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    +20 and +40, those terms are outdated the second they came out, both need to be retired and people need to stop using them completely.

    Injectors need to be rated by flow number either in lbs/hrs or cc/min at a given fuel pressure.


    DDG- Injector Flow and Application charts

    2.5TI/TII/TIII/TIV injectors = 33 lb/hr at 55psi (3.8bar)
    +20 injectors = 42lbs at 55psi (3.8bar)
    +40 injectors = 52lbs at 55psi (3.8bar)

    The math is all wrong on +20 or +40 injectors, no matter how you do them.

    (42-33)/33 = 27%
    (42-33)/42 = 21%
    (52-33)/33 = 57%
    (52-33)/52 = 36%


    What to know what an injector flow? Get its part number, search it on google.
    http://www.witchhunter.com/injectordata1.php
    http://injector-rehab.com/shop/Flow_Rates.html
    and many more.

    Need to calculator the injector flow at 3.8 bar instead of 3 bar? Use an online calculator.
    http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php

  2. #2
    We Todd D dot D Turbo Mopar Staff sdac guy's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe
    DDG- Injector Flow and Application charts

    2.5TI/TII/TIII/TIV injectors = 33 lb/hr at 55psi (3.8bar)
    +20 injectors = 42lbs at 55psi (3.8bar)
    +40 injectors = 52lbs at 55psi (3.8bar)

    The math is all wrong on +20 or +40 injectors, no matter how you do them.

    (42-33)/33 = 27%
    (42-33)/42 = 21%
    (52-33)/33 = 57%
    (52-33)/52 = 36%
    Well acording to the MP 2.2/2.5 FWD book, some of the numbers you are using above aren't correct. First and foremost, the base injector flow rate is not the stock 33 lb/hr injector, but the first MP injector offered for the T2 which was the "804" injector, which flowed 38 lbs/hr at 3.8 bar pressure.

    Then the +20 and +40 are added to THAT flow rate (respectively). They further claim that the +20 injectors flow 45 lbs/hr and that the +40 injectors flow 53 lbs/hr.

    So using what you have listed above as a way of figuring the percentage, we get:

    (45-38)/38 = 18% for the +20 this is a little low.

    and

    (53-38)/38 = 39% for the +40 this is nearly dead on.

    however if you want to figure what the total flow should be on the advertised percentages:

    38 X 120% = 45.6

    38 x 140% = 53.2

    Both of the above are very close to the advertised +20 and +40 ratings.

    Now, if any of these injector flow numbers are actually not accurate, well, it would not be the first time we found inaccuracies in the MP FWD book.

    And on your premise that these two designations should be retired, I pretty much agree. For a couple of reasons, 1) that the designations are confusing when the rest of the injector community uses actual flow rate numbers, and 2) that the day when MP was about the only place you could get upgrades on the injectors for these cars, is long past, and such designations only serve to confuse the issue.

    The only time these designations are handy is when someone needs some injectors and they ask what you may have on hand, and saying +20 or +40 is quick and easy and most folks (in the TM world) will know exactly what you are talking about.

    Barry
    Last edited by sdac guy; 11-05-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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  3. #3
    turbo addict
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Thanks for explaining Barry.

    Has anyone came across these unicorn 804 38lbs injectors?

    Gary bought a set, found out they flow exactly the same as TII injectors.

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_fuel.html
    Last edited by tryingbe; 11-06-2017 at 03:43 PM.

  4. #4
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    to bad he didn't know before he bought them .. the actual waste of money would be in buying the
    o-e replacement injectors that listed for about $140 each

    the 803/4 MP set was great for replacements when you had a bad stocker

    I know this from the experience of buying a set of 804's way back when , in the mid 90's

    the parts counter guy made my day when he came up with the 804 listing at the same cost as one injector for a set of four

  5. #5
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Has anyone came across 804 38lbs injectors?

    Gary bought a set, found out they flow exactly the same as TII injectors.

    http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_fuel.html
    In all fairness, I'm told the "804" at one time did flow higher and that they were just packaged up "out of spec" injectors. Once the supply ran out they just stuffed regular injectors in the package.

    True or not who knows.

    At any rate they are or were a bargain in the injector world, I spent several hundred bucks for the 83 pph injectors that are in there now.

    Gary


    It is time, buckle up.

  6. #6
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor DOHCRT's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    In all fairness, I'm told the "804" at one time did flow higher and that they were just packaged up "out of spec" injectors. Once the supply ran out they just stuffed regular injectors in the package.

    True or not who knows.

    At any rate they are or were a bargain in the injector world, I spent several hundred bucks for the 83 pph injectors that are in there now.

    Gary
    This is also what I know from back in the day. The injectors were actually out of spec production injectors repackaged for "performance" use. I believe they were also supposed to be "matched" for flow.


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  7. #7
    We Todd D dot D Turbo Mopar Staff sdac guy's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech
    In all fairness, I'm told the "804" at one time did flow higher and that they were just packaged up "out of spec" injectors. Once the supply ran out they just stuffed regular injectors in the package.

    True or not who knows.

    At any rate they are or were a bargain in the injector world, I spent several hundred bucks for the 83 pph injectors that are in there now.

    Gary
    I had purchased a set of 803's for my 86 GLH-T. I had bought my 803's about 1993 and they did make a slightly noticeable difference in how my car ran at WOT (not as much valve ping). I noticed on inspection that the part number was the same as the stock injector number.

    I had a conversation with Jerry Mallicoat back then, and I asked him about the part number "discrepancy". At the time Jerry was heading up the Mopar Performance division. He told me about the 803's and 804's being stockers that flowed too much. They were separated (and matched) and sold as sets for the MP higher flow injector. This conversation was in about 1996 or 1997.

    Barry
    86 Shelby Lancer Prototype
    90 Daytona Shelby VNT
    91 Spirit R/T



    For your questions about SDAC, please contact BadAssPerformance


  8. #8
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor ajakeski's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Out of 18 +20 injectors I had serviced recently, 14 of them flow 45.7 lb/hr @55 psi. 4 injectors flow 46.5 lb/hr @ 55psi.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...FFV&highlight=

  9. #9
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Personally, I never really liked rating an injector by lb/hr, as the actual lb/hr will vary with the specific gravity of the fuel (which will also vary with temp. of the fuel itself...).

    Much better to get a CC rating, as the volume at a given pressure is going to give a good "apples to apples" comparison.

    The CC number can be converted to a "standard" lb/hr figure, notwithstanding the limitations of the effects of temp and specific gravity.

    Mike

    PS Yes, even a fuels viscosity will factor in but that may be getting a bit particular for our purposes...
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  10. #10
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Does anyone have personal experience regarding how much boost you can safely run with +20's considering stock size fuel lines, stock fuel rail and stock 2.5 roller style cam and int/exh improvements and intercooler. I can switch between two bar and three bar maps. Thanks!
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

  11. #11
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Here is a post by The Pope talking about this exact topic. I am not there yet maybe by summertime
    http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...ting-20-a.html
    Regards,
    Miles

    DD '87 Sundance T1, 12PSI, SLH with rear disks
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  12. #12
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: The term +20 and +40 need to be retired.

    Thanks! Very informative, my Charger fits the first description fairlyclosely.
    Last edited by jeff1234; 03-16-2018 at 10:38 PM.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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