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Thread: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

  1. #1
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    L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Returning from running my Turbo-1 swapped 1982 Rampage at the GRM Challenge this weekend, one thing that I came away with was that I really wanted (more realistically needed) to upgrade the brakes to stop better both for handling purposes but also safety (both on the strip and on the road). I've read a moderate bit about the S-body upgrade, which is what I had planned to do- but the problem is that thanks to a last-minute change of plans I ended up with a set of WIIIIDE 13" race wheels with sticky tires and a full set of the same replacement tires. So I'd really prefer to maintain the ability to run those 13" wheels, but it looks like going to the S-body brakes would mean I'd have to run 14" wheels at minimum.


    Am I wrong on that, and will the minivan brakes still fit a 13" wheel? Or is there another brake setup I could use that would improve the stopping power while keeping smaller rotors/calipers? Thanks!

  2. #2
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    AFAIK, nothing else will fit in the stock 13" wheels, but the stock brakes. And they SUCK!!!

    I upgraded my Scamp to 10.25" vented rotors, but I'm also running the 15" shelby wheels.

  3. #3
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Well, they're not the stock 13" wheels... but I don't know if they've got any more clearance or not. I need to measure them to see exactly what the space is.

    I didn't know if I was possible to mount any of the upgraded calipers to the original brackets and (since I should have access to a shop that could do it) turn a set of larger vented rotors down to the size of the original ones.

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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    From memory, and this is going back a long time, the first upgrade to the brakes on my Horizon was to use calipers, pads and rotors from an '83 reliant. They also had 13" 4 lug wheels, but had ventilated rotors.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  5. #5
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    The K cars had two different brakes. The small standard stuff, and the HD brakes, which upgraded you to 10.25" rotors. The brakes on my Scamp are actually the 84 K car HD brakes. Simply bolted on with no issues.

    But Mike is correct, even the small stuff was ventilated, unlike the stock L-body brakes...

    But, in addition to the larger rotors & caliper, I also installed a later 24mm master cylinder, and minivan rear wheel cylinders. Made a world of difference in the stopping power of the Scamp...

    Another thing for you to check is the rear load sensing valve. They tend to stick with age. And when they stick, it's usually in the lightly loaded position, so you have virtually no rear brakes. Mine did, and I just eliminated it. Never had a problem with the rear locking up since then.

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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    So I assume that the HD (10.25" rotors) won't fit in 13" wheels? Going to the vented rotors would certainly help- I am planning on upgrading the master cylinder and hopefully the rear wheel cylinders (does that upgrade require the larger drums? And if so do they again out-size it for the 13's?).

    I do intend to do something about the rear load-sensing valve. I would like to eliminate it- does that just involve unhooking the lines into it and connecting them up directly to each other? What parts are needed for doing it?

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashyukun View Post
    So I assume that the HD (10.25" rotors) won't fit in 13" wheels? Going to the vented rotors would certainly help- I am planning on upgrading the master cylinder and hopefully the rear wheel cylinders (does that upgrade require the larger drums? And if so do they again out-size it for the 13's?).

    I do intend to do something about the rear load-sensing valve. I would like to eliminate it- does that just involve unhooking the lines into it and connecting them up directly to each other? What parts are needed for doing it?

    The HD brakes do not fit under the 13" wheels. I have an original 13" spare, and if I ever get a flat on the front, I have to swap out a rear wheel, and put the spare back there.

    Buy wheel cylinders for an 84 Caravan, and they fit the original drums just fine. That's what I did.

    You can try just reconnecting the hard lines with couplers, but my guess is you will snap the lines off just like I did. I ran all new hard line from the front proportioning valve all the way back. Custom bent them myself to eliminate the load sensing valve. You can get the pre-made generic lines from your local auto parts store for about $8 each. Takes a 60" & a 72" + coupler for each line going to the rear, IIRC. Pull the old hard lines out, and bend the new ones to match. Until you get to the rear valve area, then just custom bend them to line up with the factory hose mounts.

    If you're beating on this truck like I think you are, you should at the very least put new brake hoses on it anyways. I don't trust 30+ year old rubber hoses.

  8. #8
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    I suppose it partially depends on how exactly you define 'beating on it'....

    http://putrescence.org/piwigo/_data/...7c1d0e1-la.jpg

    OK, so no using the HD brakes. I'll have to see exactly what I can fit into the budget... the rules for the competition are complex when it comes to things like brakes. Replacement brake parts are a $0 budget hit since they want the cars to be able to stop and be (reasonably) safe- but any performance-enhancing parts have to be budgeted. So I can actually replace (and intend to) all of the rubber & hard lines at no hit to the project budget (but an obvious wallet hit), but any of the upgraded parts I have to include. So I should be able to re-do the lines to the rear and eliminate the valve at no hit, but if I upgrade the master cylinder, front calipers/rear cylinders, etc. I have to include them. I'm unfortunately not sure I am going to be able to do as much as I'd like- it will depend on how much I can keep the cost of other improvements down.

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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Looks like your rims should clear the brakes just fine, since they seem to have a -200mm offset, lol

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    I guess it depends on how you define "replacements". I know those guys stretch the rules. The K-car brakes are "factory replacements", just depends on how technical they get... Not like your trying to put Brembo's on it... And truthfully, I doubt anybody in tech would notice the difference... The 24mm master cylinder looks just like the smaller piece, except for the "4" cast into it.

    But, I know you don't want to get in trouble either, so use your best judgement. I certainly don't know the rules...

  11. #11
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Oh, there are lots of loopholes and tricks that can be pulled to get things in under budget- and if something is established and legal then I'm certainly going to do everything I can to take advantage of it. Hence why I don't have any problem counting the essentially stock replacement lines (even to eliminate the rear valve) as being exempt from budget limitations. So while I could likely get away with the MC- and a whole lot of other things that essentially nobody would ever notice (and likely in the case of the rear cylinders, SEE...)- I've always endeavored to do my best to stick with both the letter and the intent of the rules and not bend them any more than is universally accepted.

    All told, there's little chance that the Rampage (or for that matter, most any vehicle I build/bring...) is ever going to be truly competitive- but I do intend to bring it back next year loaded for bear and ready to make a run at being at least closer to the top than the bottom of the standings.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    If you're only worried about autocrossing, you can probably get away with the smaller brakes (but ventilated rotors) some aggressive pads and high temp fluid.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  13. #13
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    The autocross is 1/3 of the event- there's also a drag race and a concourse judging (though it's not quite what most people think of in terms of a concourse competition...). The car is also intended to be, well maybe not -daily- driven but driven regularly on the streets as well. With all of that in mind, I think that I can get by with the smaller (but vented) brakes with the upgraded rear cylinders and MC.

    Honestly its issues at the autocross (and I say that with it having posted a time that was solidly in the middle of the pack- 41.4 seconds on a course with a best time of 35 seconds or so) were most likely more a results of essentially having an alignment best described as 'Chaotic Unknown' and having stock shocks & struts of indeterminate age and capability than braking.

    I mainly just want to firm the brakes up- I don't like it when I stomp on the brakes at normal street speeds and the (non-ABS) car still kind of meanders to a stop vs either stopping immediately or skidding.

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Another trick I've seen guys do is get a sway bar from a G or A body and cut the ends down to fit the L-body. Will help considerably with that body lean. I need to do that to the Scamp. I installed poly suspension bushings, which helped, but I definitely need a stiffer front bar... A friend of mine put a Spirit R/T front bar in his Rampage, and it corners like it's on rails...

  15. #15
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    An improved sway bar would be nice, but I'll have to see whether I can fit it into the budget- a junkyard one is about $15-20 most places, and bushings are another $10 (if I'm lucky) on top of that. I'll probably be looking into whether making my own polyurethane bushings with the liquid urethane from McMaster or the likes will be more cost-effective (competition budget-wise at least- may be solidly more expensive if I get stock ones and use them to make moulds for the poly ones...). It's ridiculous how quickly things add up- and I'm probably only going to have $250-300 more in my budget at best to make improvements with.

    Some things will be nearly free- a friend has a 1G Neon that he rallycrosses and has camber-adjusting pillow mounts on it that I can borrow to measure and fabricate some of my own for the cost of the raw materials (hopefully I can find some decent plate material in the scrapyard at literal scrap prices...) to better adjust the front alignment. Same goes for a front strut bar- I have material that I should be able to use to weld up one for that as well as any other stiffening that looks like it needs to be done.
    Last edited by Ashyukun; 10-24-2017 at 12:28 PM.

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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    I had the 10.25" brakes with the big calipers on my van with the stock 14s originally. There was MAYBE an inch of clearance to the rim. 13s would be really close. I've been trying to sell the caliper brackets. Someone was interested but had the same dilemma as you. 13 inch wheels. I wouldn't be comfortable selling them to someone who intended to install them with 13" wheels unless they knew full well that they might not fit.

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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Quote Originally Posted by lightbulb010 View Post
    I had the 10.25" brakes with the big calipers on my van with the stock 14s originally. There was MAYBE an inch of clearance to the rim. 13s would be really close. I've been trying to sell the caliper brackets. Someone was interested but had the same dilemma as you. 13 inch wheels. I wouldn't be comfortable selling them to someone who intended to install them with 13" wheels unless they knew full well that they might not fit.
    If I can’t track down some brackets locally I may still be interested- the 13” wheels are just for the competition, my street wheels/tires are 16’s.

  18. #18
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashyukun View Post
    (hopefully I can find some decent plate material in the scrapyard at literal scrap prices...)
    Look for a metal supermarket or the like and go search the drops pile. The metal supermarket in Indy sells steel for .65 a pound and AL isn't much more. Just find a piece of plate that is big enough and buy it.

    As for the suspension. If you can use the control arms out of a 87 Daytona I can hook you up with the front subframe out of my 87 here in a few weeks with the larger front sway and it has energy bushings installed in it. Not sure if the G body arms will bolt into an L body subframe though.

  19. #19
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Quote Originally Posted by moparman76_69 View Post
    Look for a metal supermarket or the like and go search the drops pile. The metal supermarket in Indy sells steel for .65 a pound and AL isn't much more. Just find a piece of plate that is big enough and buy it.

    As for the suspension. If you can use the control arms out of a 87 Daytona I can hook you up with the front subframe out of my 87 here in a few weeks with the larger front sway and it has energy bushings installed in it. Not sure if the G body arms will bolt into an L body subframe though.
    Well, at least RockAuto seems to think that the Daytona's arms will fit on the Rampage as they list pretty much everything (L, K, and the kitchen sink...) as an interchange for the control arms for the Daytona, so presumably FCA was being smart and used the same one for all or close to all of the FWD vehicles. As I understand it the frames themselves are different, but I guess the arms that attach to them are apparently the same. So, that could be quite useful...

  20. #20
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    Re: L-body (Rampage) Brake Upgrade While Keeping 13" Wheels

    Ok I'll PM you on GRM when I get that car stripped. I'm buying an 89 to transfer the drivetrain into and plan on stripping this car to bare bones. I'll make you a very challenge friendly price for the front suspension and rear discs out of the car.

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