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Thread: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

  1. #1
    Garrett booster
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    Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Alright so finally found a right latency table for the injectors in my Omni. Here is where I am at is has had a problem on hot restarts being very lean. It has also had to move the PumpEfficency a lot to get it to move. I finally got around to shutting off all the adaptives and it was dead lean would not even stay running. Started moving up the Battery Offset table up a couple clicks at a time and after about ten clicks up it would start and run finally got it so it would idle at 14.5-14.7. Turn on the adaptives and it idles right drives nice so I take it out for a data log run, adjust the Pump efficiency table and it comes right in and runs good no more lean hot starts and all.

    My question is so I finally found the Latency table for the injectors I am running and it dosent even seem close to where I am have the battery offset table set at. Maybe I just don't understand how the table works and out to set it for larger injectors.

    Here is the latency on the injectors I am running
    10v=0.724ms 11v=0.603 12v=0.466 13v=0.379 14v=0.379 15v=0.362 16v=0.345 17v=0.293 18v=0.241

    My table for example right now at 14 volts is at 1317.01uSec

    Am I doing this right is there another table I should be adjusting?

    Thanks for the help

  2. #2
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    if you have the latency for those injectors, that should be the correct latency.

    do a cal comparison to the S60 batoff values (Tsmec). the S60 values are even lower than that.

    the battoff table is to add injector pulsewidth (more fuel) as the voltage falls to compensate for the injector taking longer to start spraying fuel when the injector on signal is applied.

    you should set your batoff table to the values you posted up for your injectors. then keep the o2 feedback off and dial in the pumping efficiency table to correct your idle.

    then set your boost to as low as possible and go out and hammer the car against the brakes (WOT) at set RPM intervals to dial in the rest of table.

    for example... 2000rpm..... hit the brakes and the gas at the same time and hold the car at 2000 rpms with the gas to the floor and log your AFR. you should keep it held there till the EGTs are a stable value.

    then let the car cool down a little and do the same for 2500, and then 3000 and so on and so forth.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  3. #3
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    I need to do this too, but when i entered the correct latency data it screwed up everything. That was at SDAC26? I decided to fix it by starting from scratch after i make a new PB.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
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  4. #4
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    I guess that seems to be the problem if I drop the battery offset table to down to what the latency chart says it should be I end up with the pumping efficiency table almost seems to have now effect with out moving it a whole pile. In the idea that I can set the thing will be 100 percent from 2800 all the way to 4500 and still be on the edge of lean unless I adjust the main fuel tables up more. This is only thing I have seen that makes the pumping efficiency table so it actually adjust something with out moving it 25 percent or more at any point. I just don't know why, fuel pressure is right for the injectors, timing is right, I must be missing something here

  5. #5
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Here is the battery offset from my cal. The top is where I am at now, middle is the stock turbonator T-LM_25_MTX_CUST unmodified the bottom is a boost button stage II says it is for stock injectors. Which the middle matches the boost button stage IV cal for 52pph +40 injectors. What is it supposed to look like for big injectors? 72, 83, 95s? I don't have a the tsmec s60 to compare it to. If I actually set the latency to the chart it will be damn close to way down by the blue line.

    Flow_Report_3.3-01D142B-850cc.pdf


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  6. #6
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    I don't have my correct injector latency data in my cal, or i would show you, and i'm using 95pph.
    I think mine is using the default that was in my cal (probably the dark blue in the above).
    And I'm in the same boat with the pumping efficiency maxed out for a wide section of rpm.
    Others have been in similar situation, and the advice i received was to increase the base fueling across the board, shifting that table up.
    That should cause the pumping efficiency curve to drop down when you input new log data into the tool.

    But what Brian suggests is true. You need to start with the correct latency data in the cal and work from there. This is why i have waited, since i need to go back to that same step 1.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  7. #7
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    The pumping efficiency table is really just for keeping the afr constant throughout the rpm range. Your problem needs to be fixed in the FuelFromMap tables, or by scaling for smaller injectors. Some injectors don't put out what they are supposed to. I would reset your PumpEff table (and any others modified) to stock, set your latency table to match the specs for your injectors, then rescale 5 or 10 lbs smaller on the injectors. That essentially makes a global fueling change, once it's in the ball park on start-up and will run and warm up without dying, then start tweaking the FuelFromMap tables. FuelBaseline is fueling at idle and WOT and Part Throttle are self explanatory.

    Basically, if it gets richer/leaner as the rpms climb, you change the PumpEff table. If it gets richer/leaner at certain boost or vacuum levels, change the map-based tables accordingly.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  8. #8
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    I put everything back to stock, put the right latency data in then scaled it for 72pph injectors seems a hole bunch better from the 5 min data log on the way to work still a little lean all the way around I will try a little lower and see if it helps. I am going to do some more data logs this afternoon and keep you guys posted.

    I guess my next question would be if my 83s are not flow what they should.......where do I get some big injectors that do flow what they should???

  9. #9
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by TFmech View Post
    I put everything back to stock, put the right latency data in then scaled it for 72pph injectors seems a hole bunch better from the 5 min data log on the way to work still a little lean all the way around I will try a little lower and see if it helps. I am going to do some more data logs this afternoon and keep you guys posted.

    I guess my next question would be if my 83s are not flow what they should.......where do I get some big injectors that do flow what they should???
    I didn't check the actual flow by a 3rd party, but Trick Flow described their injectors as flow tested.
    TFS-89095 came recommended to me for my expected power range. (The last 3 numbers are the pph.)
    I bought a set of 8 from Summitt or Jegs, can't remember who had the best price. You could always try to share a set of 8 with someone. I was buying for 2 cars.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  10. #10
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    The pumping efficiency table is really just for keeping the afr constant throughout the rpm range. Your problem needs to be fixed in the FuelFromMap tables, or by scaling for smaller injectors. Some injectors don't put out what they are supposed to. I would reset your PumpEff table (and any others modified) to stock, set your latency table to match the specs for your injectors, then rescale 5 or 10 lbs smaller on the injectors. That essentially makes a global fueling change, once it's in the ball park on start-up and will run and warm up without dying, then start tweaking the FuelFromMap tables. FuelBaseline is fueling at idle and WOT and Part Throttle are self explanatory.

    Basically, if it gets richer/leaner as the rpms climb, you change the PumpEff table. If it gets richer/leaner at certain boost or vacuum levels, change the map-based tables accordingly.
    if there are mods that decrease pumping efficiency at idle (cams and stuff, cam timing, head porting etc) the stock pumping efficiency could make it seem like the injectors arent flowing what they are rated to do. restrictive return lines to the tank can do this too making the injectors seem larger than they are cause the fuel pressure is higher than normal.

    an incorrect pumping efficiency value at idle could have you scaling the map based tables incorrectly to correct and then dialing the pumping efficiency in based on an incorrect injector size could have you chasing other tables that are now calibrated incorrectly.

    id think about sending the injectors out for cleaning/flow testing.

    or get a pump, regulator, and graduated cylinders and a stop watch and see what they really flow.

    after setting the latency curve to what it should be based on the injector part number, FuelFullThrottle should be set up to the desired AFR values using the tools in MPTune and then PumpingEfficiency should be dialed in at WOT at the lowest attainable boost level.

    that way you are measuring true pumping efficiency with the throttle plate wide open.

    after i do that, almost everything else falls in line.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  11. #11
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF0zQCkbIr0

    something like this can get you the actual flow rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  12. #12
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    with large injectors, the pulsewidth at idle will be pretty small..... small enough that the latency may be enough that the commanded pulsewidth is cut drastically by the latency, making it super lean.

    in the end, you may need to bump up the latency curve a bit after everything else is dialed in, to get it to idle well..... and then the O2 feedback may try to pull the fuel out... its a tough battle.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  13. #13
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    if there are mods that decrease pumping efficiency at idle (cams and stuff, cam timing, head porting etc) the stock pumping efficiency could make it seem like the injectors arent flowing what they are rated to do. restrictive return lines to the tank can do this too making the injectors seem larger than they are cause the fuel pressure is higher than normal.

    an incorrect pumping efficiency value at idle could have you scaling the map based tables incorrectly to correct and then dialing the pumping efficiency in based on an incorrect injector size could have you chasing other tables that are now calibrated incorrectly.

    id think about sending the injectors out for cleaning/flow testing.

    or get a pump, regulator, and graduated cylinders and a stop watch and see what they really flow.

    after setting the latency curve to what it should be based on the injector part number, FuelFullThrottle should be set up to the desired AFR values using the tools in MPTune and then PumpingEfficiency should be dialed in at WOT at the lowest attainable boost level.

    that way you are measuring true pumping efficiency with the throttle plate wide open.

    after i do that, almost everything else falls in line.

    Brian
    I've tuned a couple cars with fully ported top end and cams the way I described, so far so good.

    However, I think it is a good idea to continue the slope of the PumpEff table down to 1k rpm though, or 1500 anyway.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  14. #14
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Trick flows are Lucas injectors. The 83s I have were just sold under Lucas instead of trickflow. I might step up to 95s but you said you didn't get a latency table with yours, right?

  15. #15
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    if there are mods that decrease pumping efficiency at idle (cams and stuff, cam timing, head porting etc) the stock pumping efficiency could make it seem like the injectors arent flowing what they are rated to do. restrictive return lines to the tank can do this too making the injectors seem larger than they are cause the fuel pressure is higher than normal.

    an incorrect pumping efficiency value at idle could have you scaling the map based tables incorrectly to correct and then dialing the pumping efficiency in based on an incorrect injector size could have you chasing other tables that are now calibrated incorrectly.

    id think about sending the injectors out for cleaning/flow testing.

    or get a pump, regulator, and graduated cylinders and a stop watch and see what they really flow.

    after setting the latency curve to what it should be based on the injector part number, FuelFullThrottle should be set up to the desired AFR values using the tools in MPTune and then PumpingEfficiency should be dialed in at WOT at the lowest attainable boost level.

    that way you are measuring true pumping efficiency with the throttle plate wide open.

    after i do that, almost everything else falls in line.

    Brian
    I had the injectors on the flowbench and they were flowing right at there rated output they were with in 3 percent across the board. That was about 2500 miles ago and they have always been consistently lean. Which the 52s were consistently lean to is why I bought new injectors. My fuel system is free flowing and has way more then enough supply and return for a turbo 2.5. That is why I am at a loss with it.

    The other issue I the low boost wide open throttle for adjusting the pumping efficiency table. It has a 57 trim turbonetics 63 AR exhaust with a 2.5 swing valve on it.....it dosent like to make less then 12-15 psi and so far the thing has been lean pretty much anywhere in boost and heading towards leaner in rapid fashion.

    I guess I haven't gave a run down of what it is:
    It is a 86 Omni with 2.5, ported head, ported intake with breadbox upper, 60 mm throttle body, monster fuel system......a1000 3/8s lines sump 10an feed line ect., 2.5 inch stainless intercooler lines, ported exhaust manifold, 57 trim turbo.....it has a stock intercooler right now going to do a front mount when I get ahold of the tuneup, aluminum flywheel, hybrid 568 with posi....and the list goes on

  16. #16
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    I've tuned a couple cars with fully ported top end and cams the way I described, so far so good.

    However, I think it is a good idea to continue the slope of the PumpEff table down to 1k rpm though, or 1500 anyway.
    It's definitely not a bad way to do it. But when you add fuel that way, you'll have to take it away somewhere else.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  17. #17
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Alright here is the update tried scaling the program for smaller injectors and it ran ok but was still a little off. So I tried Aries way adjusted everything to base put the injectors back at 83 input the right latency table for them. Then fired it up with the adaptives off and it was dead lean started raising the Pumping efficiency table so till it would stay running but it was still lean about 17:1 with the table at 100percent. I then went back and put the table back to the stock position. Then went to the main three fuel tables and started scaling them up about 5 percent at a time till it got enough fuel at a idle which ended up being about 30 percent.

    Which made the pumping efficiency table so it actually does something and dosent have to be at 100 percent or close to it. It drives almost dead smooth the few miles I have driven it now it seems to be right on with the air fuel table goes to 11.5 in boost and cruises around right in the mid 14s.

    I am going to go make some data log drives and see make sure it dosent have any lean or rich spots but it is finally close enough that I can.

    I guess the Question is still why does it have to have the fuel tables up 30percent to get it to act right? Do I just need to go with it and adjust from there or keep looking for the why?

  18. #18
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    i'ld like to take a look at your updated cal if you don't mind. just want to make sure all the scaling is working correctly. you can send it to mterveen @ yahoo.com.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
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  19. #19
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    i'ld like to take a look at your updated cal if you don't mind. just want to make sure all the scaling is working correctly. you can send it to mterveen @ yahoo.com.
    just sent it your way

  20. #20
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Adjustting the Battery Offset table?

    thx. might be a few days before i can look at it btw.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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