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Thread: Advance from rpm max

  1. #1
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Advance from rpm max

    In the turbonator csx cal, at 5750 rpm there is 43 degrees of advance, in my opinion, way too much advance. Can this be changed, should it be changed? Advance from rpm 2 at 5782 rpm is27 degrees adv. I also notice that both advance from map warm and advance from map part are at 12.8 degrees advance @ 13 psi. Relative to what, the base timing?
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    No, that is actual timing. Also remember, it's not going to be 43 degrees at 5700 ever, unless somehow you can run the engine that fast in high vacuum. So I wouldn't bother with that max advance table too much. Mainly you want to use the advance from map wot, advance from map part throttle, and advance from rpm2 tables. Those three imitate the function of the old mechanical distributors. Think of advance from rpm as the spring curve that determines how fast you get full timing, and the 2 map tables are the vacuum advance can. Rpm advance is you basic timing curve, and the map advance modifies that. If you'll look close, pretty much all timing from map is negative once you're in boost. So it's actually pulling timing away from the base rpm curve.

    If you go to the bottom of the tables, there should be a total timing tab to click on, this gives you a 3d graph of the total timing at any given point.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Wow, that is very helpful. I need to ponder this and wrap my head around it. Thank you much.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    I'm starting to understand. In the advance from warm part and full the description box in lower left corner has a acronym, TMPSWP. What is the meaning?
    You stated that, If you go to the bottom of the tables, there should be a total timing tab to click on, this gives you a 3d graph of the total timing at any given point.. My MPTune is up to date but I don't see that tab. Are you referring to the tables on the top right hand side of the advance from map full or some other table?
    Yesterday I did a MPScan on my Charger and at high rpm's (5500+) i'm showing 51 + degree's advance on the gauge package. This is higher than the 43 degree's that max advance indicated in the cal and seems to disagree with your statement that it could never go that high. Is there an explanation for this? You would think that at 51 degree's advance at 13 psi your engine would go BANG!
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    I'm starting to understand. In the advance from warm part and full the description box in lower left corner has a acronym, TMPSWP. What is the meaning?
    You stated that, If you go to the bottom of the tables, there should be a total timing tab to click on, this gives you a 3d graph of the total timing at any given point.. My MPTune is up to date but I don't see that tab. Are you referring to the tables on the top right hand side of the advance from map full or some other table?
    Yesterday I did a MPScan on my Charger and at high rpm's (5500+) i'm showing 51 + degree's advance on the gauge package. This is higher than the 43 degree's that max advance indicated in the cal and seems to disagree with your statement that it could never go that high. Is there an explanation for this? You would think that at 51 degree's advance at 13 psi your engine would go BANG!
    On the left where it shows the folders, there should be a folder labeled Calculated Tables. If you expand this, you should see the calculated 3d timing tables. Not sure if the LM tables are sorted like the SMEC tables, but mine is labeled with 99, so that folder is on the bottom.
    On the gauge, use the gauge labeled CalculatedSparkAdvance, ADV, (LM = 114), (SMEC T1 = 160), in the RAM setup. This gauge will display the Advance after all the other timing tables have been applied. (**That is my understanding anyway. I'm only seeing like 10° at 20psi and WOT, but that seems low from what i've been told.)
    Last edited by wheming; 08-25-2017 at 10:36 AM.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Thanks Wayne, I will edit my gauge to use that one and do another scan. On my scan I have four vertical gauges for detonation. Cyl. One and two are showing huge errors. Since detonation is a long standing problem I wonder if I can count on the accuracy of a tune if this info is put into the utility for tuning. I also wonder if it can be fixed.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    Thanks Wayne, I will edit my gauge to use that one and do another scan. On my scan I have four vertical gauges for detonation. Cyl. One and two are showing huge errors. Since detonation is a long standing problem I wonder if I can count on the accuracy of a tune if this info is put into the utility for tuning. I also wonder if it can be fixed.
    Once you delete that gauge and add the new one, you will have to go in and edit your vehicle profile to use the new layout (config file, .mpc)

    Also for your cylinder detonation, what are you using? Ret1, ... Ret4?
    That is what i am using.
    Sometimes you need to check the RAM setup to make sure it is displaying properly.
    Also for detonation i like seeing knock voltage (KnkV). But it is important to understand the relationship with knock voltage and the maximum allowed knock voltage.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Wayne, yes I use ret1...re4. I also was already using ADV. I would know how or where to check the ram set up. Something isn't right with mpscan I think.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

  9. #9
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    There is a tab at the top of MPScan, Settings. Ram setup should be under that. It is a table of all the Ram locations, names, descriptions, and the setup. You sometimes need to check these if your log shows weird. Example: i logged RPM but my display was only showing one digit. The Ram setup was showing value was x1000.
    Check that, and make sure you are reading a couple decimal places on your knock voltage.
    I think my Ret1 - 4 are setup to read just 1 decimal.

    Are you using the latest update? Since i haven't fired mine up in a while i still have the old stuff. I could look if you need me to check something. You are on a LM, right?
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  10. #10
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    If you can, post your current .mpc file so we can look.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    What computer are you running, LM, Smec or SBEC? Some of the cals may not have everything identified properly yet. There's no way you are running 51 degrees of timing at WOT in boost at 5500 rpm. So it may be reading from the wrong location.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Thats why I think something is goofy with it. Things dont make sense.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    Thats why I think something is goofy with it. Things dont make sense.
    What computer do you have?
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  14. #14
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    hp 2200 series laptop, trying to find a way to send my last run to the forum, also I am running an LM.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    do you mean .mpl?
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    The purpose of high timing under vscuum is to prevent backdires etc
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    do you mean .mpl?
    Your saved datalogs are .mpl
    Your gauge layout/configuration/dashboard is .mpc

    In order to attach them here to the forum, you will need to copy them to a new folder, then zip the folder. T-M doesn't let you attach those file types directly, but does allow .zip
    In MPScan, when you have your log loaded, there is a tool to export to .csv (I think it is under the "Logging" tab at the top, and the first selection.) Include that file too, sometimes its easier to look through in spreadsheets.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    ok, I got them in the folder and zipped. Im having trouble finding a way to get them into the reply box.
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

  19. #19
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff1234 View Post
    ok, I got them in the folder and zipped. Im having trouble finding a way to get them into the reply box.
    If you are using a pc, you'll have to Go Advanced with your reply. Scroll down and you'll see Manage Attachments. You'll have to upload your .zip file and attach to your post.

    If you are using Tapatalk, then i don't think it lets you attach a file, mine only seems to allow attaching photos. I've had to use my pc to attach logs before. Unless, you put your files in like a google drive folder and attach the link.
    I'll pm you my email if you still have trouble.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  20. #20
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor jeff1234's Avatar
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    Re: Advance from rpm max

    Here is my zip.Attachment 61415
    The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

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