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Thread: Two Piece Porting

  1. #1
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Two Piece Porting

    I thought that since I was apparently doing the opposite of what should be done on the exhaust side, I should check before I start this project. I guess I should say finishing someone else's project.

    I've come into two 2 piece intakes both of which have been started porting wise. Both lower halves have been very nicely opened up to the gasket, and one of the upper halves has had the same done. One of the upper halves has been opened up to a 52mm TB and the other a 58mm TB. The one that's been opened up more has clearly been done by someone who knows what they're doing with a die grinder. It came with a very nice looking ported head which I assume was done by the same individual.

    What would you guys do. If for no other reason than looks, I don't want to put the stock one piece back on the car.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    get the grinder out. or pay someone who knows what they are doing with one.

    whats the goal? would be a big plenum be a better idea?

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Unless you are doing a serious build, the 58mm TB is too much. It will kill your mpg's(if you're worried about that).

    Be very careful with "gasket matched" 2 piece intakes. If the porter only opened it up there, it creates a wide spot that kills the tuning effect of the mainfold runners. It needs to be opened up all the way to make a nice, tapered transition from one end to the other. I would take a lot of measurements if I were you to make sure they didn't just open it up near the gasket surface.
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Way back in 02? We started what we called the Fully ported 2 piece. At that time, and because comments were made about gasket matching the 2 halves of the manifold being a serious problem, people do what the generally do. They threw the baby out with the bath water and decided it was VooDoo to port anything but the lower lower 1/2 of the manifold.

    We had gone away from the 1 piece design for performance almost immediately after beginning wrenching on this platform, just like the G heads, Flow was everything, the rest of the debate fell off me like rain.

    Looking for a high RPM high flowing piece, and being Novice porters, I wanted a guarantee that I Knew it was right and no guess work. So I came up with what someone on the forums coined the "Go, No Go" solution. I went to craft shops and measured and bought every size of ball, whether foam, wood ect so that while I was porting I could "drop the ball" through the ported passage and Know that it was Full flow all the way through.

    In the beginning this was used mainly for the 52mm TB throat, and it was an eye opener when I would try to pass that ball through a mani we had previously done and Thought was good. The amount of extra material that had to be removed and Where, to allow the ball to pass through was enlightening.

    So for the Fully ported version, we started with the closest matched ball size to the gasket that mates the 2 halves. I want to say the ball was 1mm smaller diam IMS. As it passed through the gasket with ease and was not a Tight fit.

    We then started the task of opening up the upper 1/2 runners till that ball could roll right into the plenum. Damn, that was a Ton of Al we took out of that piece! Did the neck the same way, port till the 52mm ball rolled through and then finish from there.

    Then it was simply a matter of Funneling the lower, starting with the ball size on top and funneling down the lower 1/2 runner to the head flange.

    The first car we used that manifold on Exceeded all expectations and quickly moved us far enough ahead of anything else around us that I began to make up my Own mind on things and disregard the "masses" on the net, becoming the Naysayer Slayer! lmao!!!!!

    Funny, I didn't Feel like I was Slaying anyone, but since the masses decided to take it upon themselves to deem porting the 2 piece VooDoo, Not understanding what was meant when (Gary D. I believe) said Not to port match the 2 halves to the gasket size, because you will obviously create a "bulb" in the center of the runners, it was thrust upon me, that we "Diss proved that Myth".

    I've never attempted to go 58mm TB on a 2 piece because it looked to me that the 52 done Properly was about all the room that was there without welding.

    I would check that mani before using a 58mm TB to see if it is actually ported well enough to Flow what a 58mm TB can

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    I don't think I've read that you shouldn't port the 2 piece at all. Just that you don't want to gasket match the halves and not touch the rest of it.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    as Tony Montana would say ya gotta have ...

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Way back in 02? We started what we called the Fully ported 2 piece. At that time, and because comments were made about gasket matching the 2 halves of the manifold being a serious problem, people do what the generally do. They threw the baby out with the bath water and decided it was VooDoo to port anything but the lower lower 1/2 of the manifold.

    We had gone away from the 1 piece design for performance almost immediately after beginning wrenching on this platform, just like the G heads, Flow was everything, the rest of the debate fell off me like rain.

    Looking for a high RPM high flowing piece, and being Novice porters, I wanted a guarantee that I Knew it was right and no guess work. So I came up with what someone on the forums coined the "Go, No Go" solution. I went to craft shops and measured and bought every size of ball, whether foam, wood ect so that while I was porting I could "drop the ball" through the ported passage and Know that it was Full flow all the way through.

    In the beginning this was used mainly for the 52mm TB throat, and it was an eye opener when I would try to pass that ball through a mani we had previously done and Thought was good. The amount of extra material that had to be removed and Where, to allow the ball to pass through was enlightening.

    So for the Fully ported version, we started with the closest matched ball size to the gasket that mates the 2 halves. I want to say the ball was 1mm smaller diam IMS. As it passed through the gasket with ease and was not a Tight fit.

    We then started the task of opening up the upper 1/2 runners till that ball could roll right into the plenum. Damn, that was a Ton of Al we took out of that piece! Did the neck the same way, port till the 52mm ball rolled through and then finish from there.

    Then it was simply a matter of Funneling the lower, starting with the ball size on top and funneling down the lower 1/2 runner to the head flange.

    The first car we used that manifold on Exceeded all expectations and quickly moved us far enough ahead of anything else around us that I began to make up my Own mind on things and disregard the "masses" on the net, becoming the Naysayer Slayer! lmao!!!!!

    Funny, I didn't Feel like I was Slaying anyone, but since the masses decided to take it upon themselves to deem porting the 2 piece VooDoo, Not understanding what was meant when (Gary D. I believe) said Not to port match the 2 halves to the gasket size, because you will obviously create a "bulb" in the center of the runners, it was thrust upon me, that we "Diss proved that Myth".

    I've never attempted to go 58mm TB on a 2 piece because it looked to me that the 52 done Properly was about all the room that was there without welding.

    I would check that mani before using a 58mm TB to see if it is actually ported well enough to Flow what a 58mm TB can
    Well said Rob.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    I don't think I've read that you shouldn't port the 2 piece at all. Just that you don't want to gasket match the halves and not touch the rest of it.
    I think all three of us are saying the same thing. Rob just went into much more detail...
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
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    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Unless you are doing a serious build, the 58mm TB is too much. It will kill your mpg's(if you're worried about that).
    I have heard this stated before, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how that size would be too much, or how it could negatively effect your MPG. The amount of throttle is still controlled by your foot.
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I have heard this stated before, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how that size would be too much, or how it could negatively effect your MPG. The amount of throttle is still controlled by your foot.
    I have no personal experience with this. Just that Gary Donovan makes a point of it on his site.
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by thedon809 View Post
    I don't think I've read that you shouldn't port the 2 piece at all. Just that you don't want to gasket match the halves and not touch the rest of it.
    That's what the peanut gallery was saying back in 2002/3

    Some things have changes since then.

    Gotta be thankful for that!

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  11. #11
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    I have no personal experience with this. Just that Gary Donovan makes a point of it on his site.
    I think the point is that a larger TB than what the neck/manifold can use would be a negative.

    Like I said, we never even tried a 58mm on the 2 piece. Just didn't look like enough material for it to work.

    If you were to weld a 3.8l TB elbow on there, well that would be a different story

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Way back in 02? We started what we called the Fully ported 2 piece. At that time, and because comments were made about gasket matching the 2 halves of the manifold being a serious problem, people do what the generally do. They threw the baby out with the bath water and decided it was VooDoo to port anything but the lower lower 1/2 of the manifold.

    We had gone away from the 1 piece design for performance almost immediately after beginning wrenching on this platform, just like the G heads, Flow was everything, the rest of the debate fell off me like rain.

    Looking for a high RPM high flowing piece, and being Novice porters, I wanted a guarantee that I Knew it was right and no guess work. So I came up with what someone on the forums coined the "Go, No Go" solution. I went to craft shops and measured and bought every size of ball, whether foam, wood ect so that while I was porting I could "drop the ball" through the ported passage and Know that it was Full flow all the way through.

    In the beginning this was used mainly for the 52mm TB throat, and it was an eye opener when I would try to pass that ball through a mani we had previously done and Thought was good. The amount of extra material that had to be removed and Where, to allow the ball to pass through was enlightening.

    So for the Fully ported version, we started with the closest matched ball size to the gasket that mates the 2 halves. I want to say the ball was 1mm smaller diam IMS. As it passed through the gasket with ease and was not a Tight fit.

    We then started the task of opening up the upper 1/2 runners till that ball could roll right into the plenum. Damn, that was a Ton of Al we took out of that piece! Did the neck the same way, port till the 52mm ball rolled through and then finish from there.

    Then it was simply a matter of Funneling the lower, starting with the ball size on top and funneling down the lower 1/2 runner to the head flange.

    The first car we used that manifold on Exceeded all expectations and quickly moved us far enough ahead of anything else around us that I began to make up my Own mind on things and disregard the "masses" on the net, becoming the Naysayer Slayer! lmao!!!!!

    Funny, I didn't Feel like I was Slaying anyone, but since the masses decided to take it upon themselves to deem porting the 2 piece VooDoo, Not understanding what was meant when (Gary D. I believe) said Not to port match the 2 halves to the gasket size, because you will obviously create a "bulb" in the center of the runners, it was thrust upon me, that we "Diss proved that Myth".

    I've never attempted to go 58mm TB on a 2 piece because it looked to me that the 52 done Properly was about all the room that was there without welding.

    I would check that mani before using a 58mm TB to see if it is actually ported well enough to Flow what a 58mm TB can
    Love the go no go ball idea. I will need to remember that.
    I am going to post a few photos. of what i did. I am not saying its right. or wrong or correct for your application or not completely screwed up. I am saying this is what is done now. no way to change it with out welding. This is running a 58MM. because my stock 4 cylinder 130HP focus is using a 60MM T/B stock.. so a 58mm on a 250+HP 4cyl is not out of the range of normalcy.
    But these are photos non the less. This is of the lower after I was done porting it. and once it was installed. it its final form.
    And these are pictures of the upper as I was working on it. no final photos of the upper . only the in progress ones.

    It was opened up to a 58mm gasket. and as straight in as i could get it. it is VERY thin at the top of the neck. about 10-11 o clock looking at the intake.
    I took the curves in the upper mating area completely out. straight down to the gasket shape all the way in. and profiled the curve in the plenum going into the open vertical ports..










    The pictures get very big. you can open them up.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    That's what the peanut gallery was saying back in 2002/3

    Some things have changes since then.

    Gotta be thankful for that!
    Best Quote of the decade.

  13. #13
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor ajakeski's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    I have a Forward Motion Enforcer engine that I plan to put in my van. It has a ported two piece. The port work done on the intake and on the runners of the head were left with a very rough finish by whom ever did the port work.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by ajakeski; 02-25-2018 at 06:22 PM.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    I have heard this stated before, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how that size would be too much, or how it could negatively effect your MPG. The amount of throttle is still controlled by your foot.
    When I look at the 8 valve engine overall, to me it's clear that the engineers (rather the beancounters and people higher up) did not at all care about high rpm power. They simply cared about responsiveness and instant torque. Our throttle bodies are laughably tiny for 2.2/2.5l engines. Especially turbocharged engines.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    What a local machinist friend did with mine, is made a template that matched the stock upper and lower ports together as close as possible, installed locating pins in the lower and matching holes in the upper to make sure everything stayed put. Used the template and dye to mark what needed smoothing for a perfect transition. No porting per say, but could have been done in the same fashion. Same was done to the neck and 52mm TB. That way anytime it need to be take apart for any reason, the pins would locate everything right back in perfect position.
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    I have no personal experience with this. Just that Gary Donovan makes a point of it on his site.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    That's what the peanut gallery was saying back in 2002/3

    Some things have changes since then.

    Gotta be thankful for that!

    Pretty sure that was refering to putting a 52mm on a 1 piece as the throat of the intake is smaller than the stock 46. Why it hurt MPG's I'm not sure. Though the same made a water/air ic out of a stock i/c and then claimed that water/air i/c's aren't any good because it didn't pick up any power.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    According to Stu Davis, the front of the upper plenum was supposed to be larger toward the valve cover. It was shortened up to make room to service the injectors. Every part on the engine was a compromise between engineering, packaging, service and accounting. Stu Posted photos of what the TII intake started as in the tread about the 2.2 history.

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys. I'll have a lot to think about as I move forward with this.

    Masterjr33, that looks very much like what was done to the more completely ported intake I have. The TB opening is especially similar. You're right that there's not much meat left there.

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    I didn't open mine up as far as some of these other guys. What I did was made a template so I could trace the outlines of the runners from one half to the other, and then matched them all up. They're not quite all the way to the gasket, but the transition is as smooth as I could get it. Then I smoothed the runners of the lower half as far as I could get with the tools I have, and smoothed the tops of the runners inside the plenum to make them more funnel shaped, if that's possible. The bottoms of the runners themselves I also made templates for and matched them to the ports on the head.

    As for the throttle body, I chose a 52mm. I took the blade out, bolted it together, and traced the transition. I ported that and made the transition very smooth, and then smoothed that into the neck as far as possible. I also tapped the EGR hole for an aluminum plug, which I turned in just far enough to protrude into the neck, and then ground that smooth.

    Now this has yet to go onto a running car, so I have no information as to how it will work.


    Quote Originally Posted by ajakeski View Post
    According to Stu Davis, the front of the upper plenum was supposed to be larger toward the valve cover. It was shortened up to make room to service the injectors. Every part on the engine was a compromise between engineering, packaging, service and accounting. Stu Posted photos of what the TII intake started as in the tread about the 2.2 history.
    Would that be the rare 5-rib intake that some of us saw at SDAC-19?

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    Re: Two Piece Porting

    if you are going at this on your own. i have two things that really helped.

    1. Ball hone on a stick. I got a 1.25 inch one that fit down the runners.
    and a 2 inch one that helped me clean up the neck on the TB. and was able to stick it way up in the upper. and just hold it there.



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