Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

[johnl]

Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

Last I looked the record at Bonneville for a mini-truck was held by a VW Rabbit trucklet and a Rampage would have to have a 2.0 and not 2.2 to run in that class.

[iTurbo]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.

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Last I looked the record at Bonneville for a mini-truck was held by a VW Rabbit trucklet and a Rampage would have to have a 2.0 and not 2.2 to run in that class.

He had a fully built custom car. It wasn't based on anything from Chrysler. And he did have a destroked 2.0L crankshaft/pistons. I have them now.

[iTurbo]

This is turning into a great thread despite me feeling bad about hijacking it with off topic stuff.

I will dig up as much information as I can regarding the ITB setup.

[thedon809]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.

You can get near 240whp with a stock turbo 3 bar setup with supporting mods? Why mess with these cars at all? Take all the money you have dumped on these cars and obscure parts and you could have a 1,000hp v8.

[zin]

Honest question here.....

Why try to get every ounce of HP out of the 8v head (in any form), when 16v engines are available? I'm a sucker for nostalgia probably more than anybody, but I can't imagine trying to squeeze any more than 240 WHP out of that old dilapidated 8v head. Am I wrong? Kudos to those that try but I just gotta wonder.

For me, it's kind of an engineering exercise, how how much of a racehorse can one make out of a mule?... Plus, I think a lot of us are into the "sleeper" aspect of our cars, which is made that much more impressive when one pops the hood to see a plain-Jane "Chrysler Turbo" valve cover. A Masi (or Lotus) branded valve cover leads to "oh, no wonder, it's not really a Chrysler anyway...".

Do not get me wrong, if it were just about making power, I'd be doing a 2.4L turbo swap. Much more flow out of the box, and much more aftermarket support as well as more contemporary mods being done (someone doing R&D for you!).

That being said, I've been planning a "see what you can get" cylinder head with the only real restriction on the project being that the valve cover rail would remain in the stock location... Though I've been considering adding a spacer to allow for higher cam towers (to get better geometry and higher lift cam), but that may be a bridge too far. Gotta get something good done, not perfection...

Mike

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I will dig up as much information as I can regarding the ITB setup.

I seem to recall that there was an adapter/sub-plate that went with those as a kit, one side matched the head, the other the ITB set-up. Or I might just be imagining it!

Mike

[iTurbo]

Ok guys, don't get me wrong. I love these cars and the 2.2/2.5 to death. Me personally, I have a very hard time finding fabrication work! And I am always very thankful for Group Buys and such. So 16v has been the way for me. I do have an awesome SOHC 8v head on my old Omni GLH that my brother now owns. It was built by Todd and it hauls ---. It is just as fast now with the old 'log' TI as it was with the previous setup which was a 2.5L "TII" with a gigantic Isuzu NPR intercooler and 17 psi. So great props to Todd for selling me that because it is awesome.

I have told my older brother I could make something *really* badass for him but he is more than happy with the power! Be it a Spearco intercooler on the old TI, a 16v conversion etc....but he loves it. He's driving to Casper WY tomorrow with it actually.

[CSX194]

For me, it's kind of an engineering exercise, how how much of a racehorse can one make out of a mule?... Plus, I think a lot of us are into the "sleeper" aspect of our cars, which is made that much more impressive when one pops the hood to see a plain-Jane "Chrysler Turbo" valve cover. A Masi (or Lotus) branded valve cover leads to "oh, no wonder, it's not really a Chrysler anyway...".

Do not get me wrong, if it were just about making power, I'd be doing a 2.4L turbo swap. Much more flow out of the box, and much more aftermarket support as well as more contemporary mods being done (someone doing R&D for you!).

That being said, I've been planning a "see what you can get" cylinder head with the only real restriction on the project being that the valve cover rail would remain in the stock location... Though I've been considering adding a spacer to allow for higher cam towers (to get better geometry and higher lift cam), but that may be a bridge too far. Gotta get something good done, not perfection...

Mike

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I seem to recall that there was an adapter/sub-plate that went with those as a kit, one side matched the head, the other the ITB set-up. Or I might just be imagining it!

Mike

You hit the nail on the head. It's an engineering project so to speak, and I enjoy unique ones at that.

The adaptor plate can be seen in my picture's. It kicks up the itb's at an angle to clear the exhaust and firewall.

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[iTurbo]

I would be VERY interested in seeing the adapter plate! I can see how if it was angled upwards to clear the radiator/fan it would be much better.

[Shadow]

For me it's the Challenge, along with the shear Coolness of what CS did with these cars to begin with.

Making things any easier just would be the same............

[CSX194]

It would be truly great if this gentleman would consent to "conducting" a thread here regarding the development of this head and anything else he was involved in, much like we've seen in the 2.2 turbo development thread.

Having someone with first-hand knowledge giving us the facts of what these engines want and can do, would put use (some folks in particular) light years ahead of the game.

Can you imagine taking a N/A engine that can make 300HP, then adding a turbo?!!

It would be great to know the tricks they used to keep things alive at that power level too!

Lots of info to be had...

Mike

Mike that is a great idea. When I contact him I'll find out if he's interested in that. Or maybe we can start a thread on questions to ask him, for an interview of sorts? I'd love to hear the history!

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[iTurbo]

I do respect the challenge. Some have said nitrous or 16v is somehow cheating. I don't agree with that, but making big power with the 8v SOHC is something to be respected.

[iTurbo]

Here's some food for thought:

It seems to me the guys that want to make big power with the 8v SOHC head are basically screwed.You basically have to do it all yourself. Sure you can get 'ported' heads from TU or FWDP, but how much can you actually trust them? If I could pay Todd to make me a badass cylinder head I would, but I'm the type that would only trust him to do it.

Years ago I was looking into M squared Racing (Matt Green) to build a top end, but they disappeared. To me it seems like the only way to build a badass 8v is if you have connections or you can do it yourself. For the laymen like me, it is no longer an option. We are stuck with stock heads.

[CSX194]

Good point. I respect the 16v stuff. It is just a better design. I've always had weird desire to make the 8v stuff work. I guess when you build and work on higher horsepower turbo cars on a regular basis i want something challenging. I have learned a great deal of universal knowledge from these 8v .motors and still love to mess with them.

One of my customers has a twin turbo viper, an 800hp Dakota that I built and a 2.5 turbo caravan that I built. Guess what he loves the most. The caravan and Dakota. Both underdogs in the head flow department.

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[glhs875]

One thing I would like to see made for the 8V head is roller followers with larger diameter rollers from that of a 8V 4.6 Ford V8. I forget the diameter of these rollers (been awhile) but they will increase the duration using the same stock camshaft by 9 deg. And if I remember right, if the larger roller were to be moved towards the lifter (increasing rocker ratio) to keep the same valve closing point as a stock rocker, the lift of a .430 cam would be increased to like .490! Then a person could play with cam timing for a desired power band! I made a mock up rocker to get measurements!

[thedon809]

I think the biggest thing that holds most 8 valvers back is skipping the basics, not the head itself.

[iTurbo]

Not knocking FWDP or TU, because I have a good relationship with both and I would like to keep it that way. But the cylinder head from Todd has most definitely proven itself. I totally admit I missed out on having a head built by Steve (BadFastGTC). Last I heard he was taking a break. I totally understand that.

My point is that 16v conversions are becoming more popular because you can just bolt them on. I did it on my Shelby Lancer. It was expensive, but it was possible. Having a badass 8v SOHC head is not so easy these days and sometimes having cash on hand makes no difference if you can't find a reputable source. I'm not advocating 16v conversion but it does seem more possible in this day.

The Masi is crazy rare, but with the TIII all you have to do is ask and pretty much everything is available.

[iTurbo]

Good point. I respect the 16v stuff. It is just a better design. I've always had weird desire to make the 8v stuff work. I guess when you build and work on higher horsepower turbo cars on a regular basis i want something challenging. I have learned a great deal of universal knowledge from these 8v .motors and still love to mess with them.

One of my customers has a twin turbo viper, an 800hp Dakota that I built and a 2.5 turbo caravan that I built. Guess what he loves the most. The caravan and Dakota. Both underdogs in the head flow department.

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Loving that Dakota!

[83scamp]

Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

You know, Shelby had a 2.0 with a Hans Hermann head running around the skunk works in a GLH for a while. Twin webers on it. It was a screamer...

[BadAssPerformance]

Jamie, thanks for sharing the pictures, good stuff! Any idea how high of compression ratio it was set up for?

I've been in touch with Koffel and have a couple blanks

[BadAssPerformance]

Here's some food for thought:

It seems to me the guys that want to make big power with the 8v SOHC head are basically screwed.You basically have to do it all yourself. Sure you can get 'ported' heads from TU or FWDP, but how much can you actually trust them? If I could pay Todd to make me a badass cylinder head I would, but I'm the type that would only trust him to do it.

Years ago I was looking into M squared Racing (Matt Green) to build a top end, but they disappeared. To me it seems like the only way to build a badass 8v is if you have connections or you can do it yourself. For the laymen like me, it is no longer an option. We are stuck with stock heads.

"how much can you trust them?" Really? WTF? Ya know, it's comments like this that make our vendors care less to support our community.

I would not question the integrity of our vendors as many have had good success running their products. For supporting such a niche community, our vendors do pretty well to support as best they can. Especially difficult for them to support when so many like to DIY then others who cannot (or dont care to) DIY lose out.

...PLEASE, let's keep this thread on topic. If anyone has any questions about a vendor (or anyone for that matter) please contact them directly to work it out.

As far as stock heads, it depends on the level of power wanted, our stock 8v heads have made it pretty far.