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Thread: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

  1. #41
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    This is making me crazy!

    Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

    Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

    gaggggggkckkk
    I have one of these ITB setups and I often wish you could machine an adapter plate for it. It is setup for mechanical fuel injection though, but I think it could be converted to EFI easy enough. The port spacing is the same, the port shape is the same (well, close), but the bolt pattern is not the same as the 8v head.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    The "casting number" area and some of the other details are identical to the casting I have here.

    Welding is normal to get the casting where you want it to be depending on who is porting or reworking the head.

    Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

    Gary

    - - - Updated - - -



    Very easy to mill the raised towers down to a stock dimension if required.

    Proceed with caution.
    I understand exactly where your coming from. If you read some of my comments I mention that's this setup is well out of reach for most people. The machine cost after welding would make most people cringe. Hell most can't even find a shop to align bore cam journals. I don't think most can see the heavy amount of modification involved from the pictures. The ports are not even in the same location as a stock head.

    My intent was just to share pictures of a piece of history. I still want to do port molds because I want to learn why they did what they did. I also want to design and build another intake and set the itb setup aside.

    IF people wanted a head such as this the only 2 avenues would be to have a new one cast, or to scale down the port size. A 3d drawing would have to be done on the inside and out of a g head and a proper port sized to fit. And that does not even address the chamber differences.

    Is the side of your head pink? Aka pink head.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by iTurbo View Post
    I have one of these ITB setups and I often wish you could machine an adapter plate for it. It is setup for mechanical fuel injection though, but I think it could be converted to EFI easy enough. The port spacing is the same, the port shape is the same (well, close), but the bolt pattern is not the same as the 8v head.
    Iturbo that looks to be the same bolt pattern as mine. Can you share the history on this if you know. Is there any casting numbers. It looks to be almost identical to mine. I bet mine is a modified version.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  4. #44
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post

    Proceed with caution.
    I would agree with this;

    If you want to put the $'s into completing this head and use it, that's cool, it's a Neat piece, but anyone thing about replicating it should think twice.

    The amount of welding alone is not worth the time and effort, not to mention the potential lack of longevity when you consider the effect welding has on a head like this And looking at the porosity of the welds leaves a lot in Q.

    It is Interesting though, to see the Extremes that some have gone to, to try to make power out of one of these heads.

    More interesting I think, that some can achieve the same result with No welding at all..........

    Robert Mclellan
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Gary, THANK YOU for clearing up some questions I had about the head.
    It had a few issues that appeared to be custom, or one-off.

    Thank God I didn't just started porting. lol

    Thanks again.
    Have a great day!

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

  6. #46

    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

    Gary

    Proceed with caution.
    Understatement; you cannot port a production G head to the configuration shown in the Koffel head.
    You will have water coming out everywhere! Also, if you do all the welding required, the entire head would need to be re-heat treated, and re-machined.
    It looks like the valves have been moved over about .060 on the Koffel head. Nice piece for sure, and high RPM capable. Ive been over 9800 RPM with my "stock" head, Can only imagine what this Koffel head could do.
    Last edited by Warren Stramer; 08-02-2017 at 12:03 PM.
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by warren stramer View Post
    it looks like the valves have been moved over about .060 on the koffel head. Nice piece for sure, and high rpm capable. Ive been over 9800 rpm with my "stock" head, can only imagine what this koffel head could do.
    Wow!!!! Lol

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I would agree with this;

    If you want to put the $'s into completing this head and use it, that's cool, it's a Neat piece, but anyone thing about replicating it should think twice.

    The amount of welding alone is not worth the time and effort, not to mention the potential lack of longevity when you consider the effect welding has on a head like this And looking at the porosity of the welds leaves a lot in Q.

    It is Interesting though, to see the Extremes that some have gone to, to try to make power out of one of these heads.

    More interesting I think, that some can achieve the same result with No welding at all..........
    Correct Warren, HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT!!

    My intent is to finish the head, have it put on a flow bench, share the results and put it to use. I have no intent on reproducing this head or making porting templates. It would be financially out of reach to reproduce this head from a stock casting, I have stated this a few times now in this thread. i have also warned about the raised ports, valve spacing and other major differences.

    I do however want to 3d model the chamber and ports. I think it would be nice piece of information to compare to a stock casting along with flow data. If my self or someone else learns something from it then i would be happy.

    Shadow i cant comment on your last remark, you might be correct however i dont have any data on this head or any other one with similar characteristics for that matter. This is the number one reason i want to flow this head asap along with a stock and ported head. I really want to see how much of a gain was all this worth. I probably already can guess, as this was designed for a highly competitive team at the time. so every little bit helps.

  9. #49

    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    I'm pleased to hear you are going to finish and use that head. I don't think anyone has yet found the absolute limits of the old 8 Valve 2.2 yet. Good on you!
    best 1/8 ET-6.16 sec. best 1/8 speed-119.70 Best 1/4 MPH 145.5, Best 1/4 ET 9.65 sec. 8 valve NO NITROUS!!

  10. #50
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    Correct Warren, HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT!!

    My intent is to finish the head, have it put on a flow bench, share the results and put it to use. I have no intent on reproducing this head or making porting templates. It would be financially out of reach to reproduce this head from a stock casting, I have stated this a few times now in this thread. i have also warned about the raised ports, valve spacing and other major differences.

    I do however want to 3d model the chamber and ports. I think it would be nice piece of information to compare to a stock casting along with flow data. If my self or someone else learns something from it then i would be happy.

    Shadow I cant comment on your last remark, you might be correct however I don't have any data on this head or any other one with similar characteristics for that matter. This is the number one reason i want to flow this head asap along with a stock and ported head. I really want to see how much of a gain was all this worth. I probably already can guess, as this was designed for a highly competitive team at the time. so every little bit helps.
    Awesome! Sounds like you have a Level head on your shoulders and a Good Understanding of what it is and what you want to do with it!

    I think Everything your saying is Exactly what I would hope to hear from someone coming across a piece like this! You can never have enough cross-reference info and something like this, which is purposefully built to go All Out is the Perfect "measuring stick" to compare all others to.

    Cool to see what the port flange measurements are And if you are able to get an accurate cross section of the intake and exhaust ports!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Stramer View Post
    I'm pleased to hear you are going to finish and use that head. I don't think anyone has yet found the absolute limits of the old 8 Valve 2.2 yet. Good on you!
    I agree Warren!
    Last edited by glhs875; 08-02-2017 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    I was wondering last night if it might be one of the isma cheeter heads in origin due to the possiable chevy valve length (?)

    it's definately not and never intended for anything but wide open throttle and I have to wonder if maybe it was also intended to run cooler with alcohol

    it's intended run time life might be kinda short too - like the 10 000 rpm 351 ford I saw 35 years ago .. with a valvetrain that was good for a total of 3 min run time
    a very expensive valvetrain at that..

    there may be a way to get the porting without the worry about hitting water everywhere

    the old 351 nascar engines used to get a big chunk of the head cut off where the useless factory ports were
    they would then add a big section of steel and cut their own ports into that

    so , IF you milled a large slot/notch across the intake/exhaust mounting surface , from the very bottom edge of the exhaust ports up to the tops of the intake ports , and far enough into the head to get just past the rear row of head bolts , it might be quite possiable to seal the water jacket again without worry about welds or epoxy and almost erase the factory ports right up to the bowls under the valves

    then you can cut any port you want into the piece of material that gets pounded into the slot
    - and that dosen't need to follow the factory head footprint either as in other than being made to fit the slot , that piece of material could also be extended beyond the back of the head ,, and even above it to get the angles you might want

    with enough planing you could even put the holes for the injectors in it

    mm , maybe this is what I should do with the free "ported" g head I was given.. the one with no cam caps,
    take it to the machine shop and "waste" it by cutting the slot just to see what's there

  13. #53
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johny Dodge View Post
    I was wondering last night if it might be one of the isma cheeter heads in origin due to the possiable chevy valve length (?)

    it's definately not and never intended for anything but wide open throttle and I have to wonder if maybe it was also intended to run cooler with alcohol

    it's intended run time life might be kinda short too - like the 10 000 rpm 351 ford I saw 35 years ago .. with a valvetrain that was good for a total of 3 min run time
    a very expensive valvetrain at that..

    there may be a way to get the porting without the worry about hitting water everywhere

    the old 351 nascar engines used to get a big chunk of the head cut off where the useless factory ports were
    they would then add a big section of steel and cut their own ports into that

    so , IF you milled a large slot/notch across the intake/exhaust mounting surface , from the very bottom edge of the exhaust ports up to the tops of the intake ports , and far enough into the head to get just past the rear row of head bolts , it might be quite possiable to seal the water jacket again without worry about welds or epoxy and almost erase the factory ports right up to the bowls under the valves

    then you can cut any port you want into the piece of material that gets pounded into the slot
    - and that dosen't need to follow the factory head footprint either as in other than being made to fit the slot , that piece of material could also be extended beyond the back of the head ,, and even above it to get the angles you might want

    with enough planing you could even put the holes for the injectors in it

    mm , maybe this is what I should do with the free "ported" g head I was given.. the one with no cam caps,
    take it to the machine shop and "waste" it by cutting the slot just to see what's there
    I dont know what koffel's intent of this head was. But This is most definitely a version of the IMSA head. I doubt it's designed for "30 sec" hits and just WOT. We all know there is many more aspects than WOT in road racing. And he was heavy into IMSA in the early 90s when this was probably made.

    The IMSA head I saw was almost identical visually. The epoxy work is minor compared to what I've seen in other road race engines. So i think it will be fine.

    While it might not last a full season of racing, I have no doubt it will be fine for what I intend to do with it.

    Johnny, that is an interesting idea. I'll have to re read that a couple times to fully understand. If you have a junk head I would do as you say and post up some pics. You could be on to something!
    Last edited by CSX194; 08-02-2017 at 04:36 PM.

  14. #54
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    Iturbo that looks to be the same bolt pattern as mine. Can you share the history on this if you know. Is there any casting numbers. It looks to be almost identical to mine. I bet mine is a modified version.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    I got this ITB setup from an older guy in Boise that was building a 'streamliner' to go racing at Bonneville. I responded to his Craigslist ad for a Maserati 16v engine and drove over to pick it up. I was shocked and amazed when I got there though.....he had the Masi 16v engine, but it was all machined and ready to assemble with a billet 2.0L crank, 6 Arias forged pistons, 6 Cunningham rods, huge T67 turbo etc....He had some health problems and decided to sell the project. It was the ultimate turbo Mopar find of a lifetime! I talked to him for hours and toured his shop. Just awesome.

    The ITB setup I have is a Hilborn part. I'm not sure how he was going to use it with the Masi 16v, but he didn't get that far in the project. Last I checked I think it was still listed on their website. I got all the books for it as well.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    Attachment 61235

    That is not a factory casting, it is one of the Brodex castings done for "cheating" hence the cast in part number.

    I had two that was obtained from Jerry Mallicoat, still have one of them.
    Isn't this also known as a "pink head"? Doesn't Steve M. have one as well? (thought I remember him acquiring one a long time ago before he "retired").

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?
    Absolutely! I drove my brother Josh's old Buick Regal GS and loaded everything up in the trunk and in the car. It was dragging --- hardcore on the way back to Wyoming! We hit it off great and he was just giving me stuff!! I remember asking him if he had the stock turbo (IHI), and he went into his house and came back with the Garrett T67 and told me he didn't have it but gave me the T67 instead. Coolest guy ever. Just touring his shop and talking to him for hours was worth more than what I came home with.

    I think his name was Dan Wiseman. He apparently had connections at Mopar to get this stuff way back in the day.
    Last edited by iTurbo; 08-02-2017 at 04:29 PM.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    Isn't this also known as a "pink head"? Doesn't Steve M. have one as well? (thought I remember him acquiring one a long time ago before he "retired").
    Yes that I beleive is called the pink head. The end of it was hit with pink spray paint. Aka cheater head.
    Scratch that I think the brodix and pink heads were 2 different things. Someone will know more than me.
    Last edited by CSX194; 08-02-2017 at 04:50 PM.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by johnl View Post
    Did you buy that engine from him? The guy in Boise?
    Sorry to go off topic, but as far as the 2.0L Maserati 16v engine........I've built several 2.2L engines so far. I kind of think of them as practice runs but all of them have been kicking ---. This 2.0L Masi 16v kind of intimidates me and I want to perfect everything as far as my ability. It blows my mind how this guy was going to use a huge turbo and this engine with that ITB setup. Given enough experience with fabrication, anything is possible, but yeah it's still way above my ability. So for now, it stays on the shelf and I just look at it in wonder.

    Maybe a 2.0L Maserati 16v Omni GLH is in the future. I will be sure to stash all the stock stuff in a corner in my garage though and make it totally revertible!

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    One of the person's that was involved with this program is around. The gentleman that had the heads knows him and can ask questions...
    It would be truly great if this gentleman would consent to "conducting" a thread here regarding the development of this head and anything else he was involved in, much like we've seen in the 2.2 turbo development thread.

    Having someone with first-hand knowledge giving us the facts of what these engines want and can do, would put use (some folks in particular) light years ahead of the game.

    Can you imagine taking a N/A engine that can make 300HP, then adding a turbo?!!

    It would be great to know the tricks they used to keep things alive at that power level too!

    Lots of info to be had...

    Mike
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