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Thread: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

  1. #21
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    There were importing the chinese remake. and pretending it was amazing.
    Got ya. Maybe they were just doing the final machine work or something then.

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Those ports (and chamber) look so much like a V-8 port it's not funny!

    Looks a bit like they took the (correct) approach of determining what the ideal valve size would be (or be possible), what the port should be, and then just "made it so"!

    I'd be very curious as to the length of those valves. I'm already clued into the solid/adjustable lash adjuster/lifter), but, especially with a port like that, the cam with the "proper" lift just doesn't fit (and have decent geometry), with the cam located where it is. I'm guessing, based on the pictures showing all the welding around the spring seats, that they may have lowered the seats to get a little more distance between the cam the the valve, and a shorter valve would be needed to take full advantage of that mod.

    You can guess my next question has to do with the cam (if it's "native" to the head), such as max lift, etc...

    Love that it's O-ringed, says lots of power being made, reliably...

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  3. #23
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    csx194: when you do the scanning, its critical you make sure the mold has reference surfaces that are flat and easy to locate once the point cloud is in geomagic. For instance, the manifold gasket surface is one, if you can also grab the valve guide axis and the combustion chamber or even head gasket surface that would be great..these things are required to locate the scan in space relative to other parts of the head in a precision way once its in solidworks.

    also try to avoid molding too much at once..you might need to do the ports separate from the combustion chamber, like I did. this makes it easier to scan because you can avoid undercuts. undercuts during the scan = impossible to scan, or alot more work to merge multiple scans

  4. #24
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by zin View Post
    Those ports (and chamber) look so much like a V-8 port it's not funny!

    Looks a bit like they took the (correct) approach of determining what the ideal valve size would be (or be possible), what the port should be, and then just "made it so"!

    I'd be very curious as to the length of those valves. I'm already clued into the solid/adjustable lash adjuster/lifter), but, especially with a port like that, the cam with the "proper" lift just doesn't fit (and have decent geometry), with the cam located where it is. I'm guessing, based on the pictures showing all the welding around the spring seats, that they may have lowered the seats to get a little more distance between the cam the the valve, and a shorter valve would be needed to take full advantage of that mod.

    You can guess my next question has to do with the cam (if it's "native" to the head), such as max lift, etc...

    Love that it's O-ringed, says lots of power being made, reliably...

    Mike
    The valves that are with it are longer than g head valves. I don't think the intake valve is correct, I only have one and it's longer than the exhaust. I think that maybe the seats are closer to the deck. The chamber is not nearly as deep. The echaust port floor has been raised nearly. 300!!

    There is a crane cam In it however I'm not sure if it's from koffel. There are markings but I can only read the 1990 date code.

    Also it looks like the base circle might be small which would help with proper geometry, along with the solid lifters. I have yet to try and assemble it. I'm not sure if these valves are the correct ones for this head.

  5. #25
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Here are some better port pictures for your viewing pleasure

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Someone out there must have run these when they were campaigned by a very well funded race team.

  7. #27
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Someone out there must have run these when they were campaigned by a very well funded race team.
    Probably, and those someone probably moved on 30 years ago.

  8. #28
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    This is making me crazy!

    Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

    Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

    gaggggggkckkk

  9. #29
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Probably, and those someone probably moved on 30 years ago.
    No doubt. If we could find him, I'm sure he would be more than willing to talk about the head though.

  10. #30
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    This is making me crazy!

    Once all the geometry is in Solidworks, you could figure out the easiest way for it to be ported or machined, and make that a reality for anyone who wants to do it

    Then, I bet I could make a special BMF head flange designed to work with it, including the unusual bolt pattern

    gaggggggkckkk
    I'm excited but I have my worries. The exhaust floor is moved up so high that I doubt we can make it happen on another head without major welding. Although the actual dimensions of the exhaust port are not all that out of reach for a ported stock g head without welding. I wonder how much that short turn would kill flow if it was left alone.

    On the intake side I bet we could figure out a scaled down version that retains this configuration and still flows well with out having to weld the inside valley of the head and fill the water jacket partially with epoxy.

    I Also did some rough measuring. The valve seat is pushed way down in the chamber "I.e. closer to the deck surface". Like .250! The valve is also longer due to the super small base circle on the cam.

    But none of that really matters much if If i stay with the stock roller cam configuration. Valves can be easily spec'd.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    No doubt. If we could find him, I'm sure he would be more than willing to talk about the head though.
    One of the person's that was involved with this program is around. The gentleman that had the heads knows him and can ask questions. I actually want to see if they can finish this one up for me.

    This head came directly from koffel when my friend bought his remaining 4 cyl parts.

  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    I'm no airflow expert but does anyone see a down side to the super large intake port vs exhaust? Obviously a cam is probably going to have to be designed and built to take advantage of this.
    The intake to exhaust port size looks good to me. Most go overboard on the exhaust, thinking they are gaining something, when 80% of the effort to make power is on the Intake side.........

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  13. #33
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    This is amazing!!!!
    And gives me a bit of relief about how I ported my G-head.
    Incredible amount of time and work into these heads. Nice to see.
    Thanks for posting.

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  14. #34
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    OP, if you want the head finished, send it back to Koffel
    I drive by the shop everyday on the way to work.
    http://www.b1heads.com/
    If you need more info on what's done to the head, I can stop on my way home and ask him.
    I've talked to Scott a few times, once about doing up a 8 valve head and another time
    a friend wanted a 16 valve head done.
    (Side story, he told me instead of working the 16 valve head I should contact the guy in Florida and grab one of the Masi heads he sold him..)
    He's a super nice guy to talk to. A guy in our Buckeye chapter used to work there and had a head done by him.
    It was insane! Too bad it's still sitting on a shelf somewhere....
    Been a few years ago but I swear they were Chevy 350 valves, heavily modified, obviously.

  15. #35
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	imsa_casting.jpg 
Views:	243 
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ID:	61235

    That is not a factory casting, it is one of the Brodex castings done for "cheating" hence the cast in part number.

    I had two that was obtained from Jerry Mallicoat, still have one of them.


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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    The valves that are with it are longer than g head valves. I don't think the intake valve is correct, I only have one and it's longer than the exhaust. I think that maybe the seats are closer to the deck. The chamber is not nearly as deep. The echaust port floor has been raised nearly. 300!!
    If I remember right, the cam towers were raised so small block chevy valves and springs could be used.

    Do NOT port your heads based on this cylinder head. It is a unique casting where lots of extra meat was added, ports raised, thicker deck, etc.

    Gary


    Working on clearing the decks.

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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    If I remember right, the cam towers were raised so small block chevy valves and springs could be used.

    Do NOT port your heads based on this cylinder head. It is a unique casting where lots of extra meat was added, ports raised, thicker deck, etc.

    Gary
    Mopar-tech, he has a brodix casting right next to where I pulled this one from. I beleive the 2 to be different. This one has had the hand welding done to it. But yes you are correct those are heavily modified pieces.

    You can see all the weld porosity in the chamber and where they peened the area above the ports while welding. There are also npt plugs throughout where epoxy was injected. I also took a cam tower measurement and it didn't appear to be raised like the brodix.
    Last edited by CSX194; 08-02-2017 at 08:04 AM.

  18. #38
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    I'm curious to see how this head would flow vs. the 16 valve versions, both 2.2 and 2.4!

  19. #39
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by Keito View Post
    OP, if you want the head finished, send it back to Koffel
    I drive by the shop everyday on the way to work.
    http://www.b1heads.com/
    If you need more info on what's done to the head, I can stop on my way home and ask him.
    I've talked to Scott a few times, once about doing up a 8 valve head and another time
    a friend wanted a 16 valve head done.
    (Side story, he told me instead of working the 16 valve head I should contact the guy in Florida and grab one of the Masi heads he sold him..)
    He's a super nice guy to talk to. A guy in our Buckeye chapter used to work there and had a head done by him.
    It was insane! Too bad it's still sitting on a shelf somewhere....
    Been a few years ago but I swear they were Chevy 350 valves, heavily modified, obviously.
    Thanks Keito. I would love to have him finish it up. First I'm going to get the intake and exhaust manifolds figured out. If you happen to stop by his shop, any history you can get would be awesome. I'm actually thinking the itb setup might be off some other set up and if so if like to look for another one. He specifically called this the "pro stock" head.

    Oh and I might happen to know where those masiheads are



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    Last edited by CSX194; 08-02-2017 at 11:29 AM.

  20. #40
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    Re: Koffel 8v Head and IMSA ITB Setuo

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    Mopar-tech, he has a brodex casting right next to where I pulled this one from. I beleive the 2 to be different. This one has had the hand welding done to it. But yes you are correct those are heavily modified pieces.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    The "casting number" area and some of the other details are identical to the casting I have here.

    Welding is normal to get the casting where you want it to be depending on who is porting or reworking the head.

    Do what you will, if people start trying to port factory casting heads to match this one bad things will probably happen.

    Gary

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CSX194 View Post
    I also took a cam tower measurement and it didn't appear to be raised like the brodix.
    Very easy to mill the raised towers down to a stock dimension if required.

    Proceed with caution.


    Working on clearing the decks.

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