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Thread: Questions about WB readings & tuning

  1. #1
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Questions about WB readings & tuning

    OK all you ECU tuning guru's, I have a couple of questions.

    Being new to the whole socketed ECU/WB/modified engine game, I've done a lot of reading and need a little input.

    I took the Scamp for its first real drive last night since finishing the engine install. For those who haven't read my thread, I converted it to a 2.5 TII setup with +40's, a ported head with +1mm valves, 2 piece intake, FMIC, AFPR, Walbro 255 in the tank, 3 bar MAP, and a stock Garrett turbo w/ turbonetic 2.5" SV. Force Fed Mopar did the tune for it from a known tune he was running. Ran like a scalded dog for the first 15 minutes until I stopped. AFR's on the wideband looked good, everything was running fine. Never shut it off, then took my nephew for a drive. It seems like it went a little "soft" when I drove him around. Not bad, but not what it was. AFR's were staying in the mid to high 13's. Came back, shut it off, and hung out for about 20 minutes, then drove it home. AFR's are high 10's- low 11's when I punch it, but cruising, they seem to vary a lot more than I think they should, and the engine has a slight "surge" when cruising. Running 65 mph down the highway, the AFR gauge was bouncing around from about 13.3 up to 15.5. I know the ECU constantly adjusts, but should it vary that much?

    I have about 48 psi of fuel pressure at idle, and with vacuum unhooked, it goes up to about 52-53. Sitting there idling, the WB is showing right at 14.7, so I'm not rich at idle. I do need to remote mount my gauge to see what it's doing under load, but with the AFR's I'm getting at WOT, I assume it's raising fuel pressure OK. Right now I'm running minimum boost(about 6-7 psi) while I break it in.

    I am running an Auber Instruments 3 bar MAP sensor that was suggested on a thread here. A friend of mine was running one as well, and he was getting some odd AFR's. Said switching to a genuine GM 3 bar MAP fixed it. Maybe that's my issue? Not real sure, and I don't want to throw parts at it.

    I checked, and I do not have any codes. The ECU is happy.

    Hoping for a little wisdom from those of you who have gone before, and know a lot more about this stuff than me...
    Last edited by 83scamp; 07-27-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    The ECUs on these cars are adaptive, so they will require a "learning" period which could explain why you noticed a change from the first drive. I would disconnect the battery to reset the adaptives and drive it again to see where it's at. Your AFR shouldn't be jumping around at cruise though. You can use a multimeter to check your TPS. I don't know if you used a new one or not. Sometimes they get scratchy. Do you have a scanner or a way to datalog? Without knowing what the ECU is actually seeing it's hard to diagnose issues like this. Maybe Force Fed will chime in with some specifics of the tune.

  3. #3
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Thanks for the reply. I know long distance diagnostics are near impossible.

    All of the sensors(CTS, TPS, AIS motor, HEP, MAP) are new except for the intake air sensor. That came out of another manifold. So hopefully that's not it.

    I do not have a way to datalog at the moment. Hopefully once Force Fed gets his tuning operation up and going, he will be offering the cables so I can datalog with my laptop.

    Right now I'm suspecting the MAP sensor, since my friend had a similar issue with his from the same company... So I ordered a new one from DIY Autotune. When it comes in, I'll give it a try.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

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    turbo addict
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    You can build the cable for like, $10.

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    That doesn't sound too out of the ordinary. Although, your static FP should be 55PSI at idle.

  6. #6
    boostaholic
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    What is the ECU? Logic Module? I've had horrible luck lately with the connectors at my LM being a little loose. Not loose enough to shut off the car, but it will cause intermittent driveability issues that are very similar to what you describe.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Sorry,

    It's an SMEC.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    That doesn't sound too out of the ordinary. Although, your static FP should be 55PSI at idle.
    I always thought static(no vacuum) was 55, with vacuum applied it's supposed to be about 48? Either way, if I up it to 55 at idle, it goes way rich & my AFR goes to about 13.5. So I backed it back down to 48.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    I would keep it at 55PSI and see if the cal can compensate. It should be able to. If anything, I would expect it to want to run lean with the ported head etc.

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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    It seems like it went a little "soft" when I drove him around. Not bad, but not what it was.
    A/F is only half the tuning. You tune A/F first, then you tune spark timing.

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor 2.216VTurbo's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    In my experience( I'm prolly lacking tuning skilz BTW) AF ratio during cruise is almost pointless, it varies and bounces so much it's insignificant, the real tell is during WOT. 11.5-12-1 is ideal, full throttle and full boost is when it matters most...

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    In my experience( I'm prolly lacking tuning skilz BTW) AF ratio during cruise is almost pointless, it varies and bounces so much it's insignificant, the real tell is during WOT. 11.5-12-1 is ideal, full throttle and full boost is when it matters most...

    I'm right there. At WOT, it's showing mid 11's, so I know I'm safe rich.

    Rob sent me e PM last night. I think I've been hurting myself by unhooking the battery every night while working on tweaks. He said to give it a couple weeks to learn & adapt. So that's what I'm going to do.

    Thanks everybody for the input. I'll report back as I get some miles on this beast.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    So how are you loading your cal to your smec? Changing chips, or are you flashable?
    You need that flash cable as a priority so you can set up and datalog. I wouldn't make a whole lot of changes until you can see logs showing sensor data.
    Once you can you might want to temporarily disable the charge air temp input, or you can log it to see if it is flakey.
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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Always set your fuel pressure to WOT like you have done! IF you increase FP now your WOT will Not adapt and you will be Richer.

    Part throttle and all other conditions while in "closed loop" (reading o2 sensor) are adaptive and will come around in time.

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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post

    Rob sent me e PM last night. I think I've been hurting myself by unhooking the battery every night while working on tweaks. He said to give it a couple weeks to learn & adapt. So that's what I'm going to do.
    The o2 adaptive learning happens within 10 minutes of driving, in my experience.

  16. #16
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    I noticed it took a little while for my idle to not be super rich.

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    The o2 adaptive learning happens within 10 minutes of driving, in my experience.
    I've had a couple cars that have taken longer. Both had custom cals in them. I find the LMs take no time at all, while the SMECs for me are either like an LM or can take a while. The SBEC in my Shadow would take 30-50 miles of mixed driving before it finally settled down. I've read it can take up to 50 miles of driving before it's as good as it gets with the later ECUs.

  18. #18
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 83scamp's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    So how are you loading your cal to your smec? Changing chips, or are you flashable?
    You need that flash cable as a priority so you can set up and datalog. I wouldn't make a whole lot of changes until you can see logs showing sensor data.
    Once you can you might want to temporarily disable the charge air temp input, or you can log it to see if it is flakey.
    It's a socketed SMEC, and Ron M. flashed the chip for me. I am going to get/make a cable so I can datalog.

    I made a couple of tweaks Wednesday night. My ignition timing was only at 8*, so I corrected it to 12*, I tightened up my BOV, and I raised boost from 6 to 10 psi. Made a ton of difference on the drive last night. This thing is an animal. Boost comes in about 2000 rpm( I think, tryng to watch the tach, boost, and AFR gauges at the same time is tricky), and it's like getting hit in the @ss with a semi. It's a rush. Boost is now my drug of choice

    By the time I get to 18 psi, I'm going to be shredding tires, I know it... I've found my new high in life... Way better than drugs or booze...

    I think I'm going to leave everything right where it is for now, and put some miles on it to let it adapt.

    I didn't have the time to go for a longer drive to see if I still have the slight "surge" while cruising. I'm convinced that is a crappy 3 bar MAP sensor. I have the real deal coming from DIY Autotune, so I'll put that in when I get it.

    I really do appreciate everybody's help and suggestions. Like I said before, this is new territory for me, and I'm still on the steep up-hill climb of the learning curve. So far I'm absolutely thrilled with the results. It can only get better with a little time.
    83 Scamp GT, 2.5 TII/A-520
    89 Dodge Daytona ES turbo, Daily driver

  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Should only take 3-4 drives for the adaptives to set, not a couple weeks. Ideally an hour drive every day for a couple days should have them settled. On my Lebaron it'd take 2-3 days of daily driving for the idle to settle back after disconnecting the computer.

    I'd leave the fuel pressure at 48 with the vacuum line on, if the WOT AFR is right at that setting. I always use stock FPR's which may increase differently than the aftermarket adjustable units. I am not a fan of the adjustable units...

    My cruise AFR's bounced from mid-14's to mid-15's, on an AEM gauge. Some gauges read differently.

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  20. #20
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Questions about WB readings & tuning

    Also, just to datalog you can buy an ftdi usb cable and hook up 3 wires to the diagnostic port. Put MP Scan on a laptop, set it up for smec and what gauges you want, and datalog.

    Rob M.
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