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Thread: Ported Stockers Revisited

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    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Ported Stockers Revisited

    I'm putting my new die grinder to use. I've ported the swing valve very slightly, the turbine housing significantly, and now it's time for the stock exhaust manifold to go under the grinder.

    I've opened up the outlet to the turbo in a big way as I really opened up the turbine housing. I've laid the back side of the flange back going toward cyl. #1 so that you can see very far back there and the gas from #1 and #2 will have a more fair shake. I think I'll leave #3 and #4 alone to an extent. You can see out of the manifold when you look directly through those two, so I figure they don't need much more help. I'll hog out #1 and #2 for all their worth.

    What's your technique? Let's try to keep this one civil shall we? Of course, if it does come down to it, an old school NA MP long tube header is what I'll use when see you under the TU tent.

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    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    I spent quite a bit of time on 3 & 4 in my manifold. I completely ground out the big knobs that stick out from the roof of the runners. Especially in 3, it creates quite a restriction.

    I opened all 4 on the sides to match the gasket, which is what I did on the head, but on the roof & floor, I matched them to the ports on the head so there was a smooth transition. I bolted the exhaust & intake manifolds on the head several times to check that the mating area was smooth.

    Must have worked, I took the Scamp for its first real drive last night, and that 2.5 readily revved to 6K. I know the stock engine in the Daytona pretty much quits about 5K...

  3. #3
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I'm putting my new die grinder to use. I've ported the swing valve very slightly, the turbine housing significantly, and now it's time for the stock exhaust manifold to go under the grinder.

    I've opened up the outlet to the turbo in a big way as I really opened up the turbine housing. I've laid the back side of the flange back going toward cyl. #1 so that you can see very far back there and the gas from #1 and #2 will have a more fair shake. I think I'll leave #3 and #4 alone to an extent. You can see out of the manifold when you look directly through those two, so I figure they don't need much more help. I'll hog out #1 and #2 for all their worth.

    What's your technique? Let's try to keep this one civil shall we? Of course, if it does come down to it, an old school NA MP long tube header is what I'll use when see you under the TU tent.
    I'm in agreement with your comments! I always like for the ports of the manifold to be slightly larger than the ports of the head to help create anti- reversion! 83scamp made a good point for cylinders 3 and 4!

  4. #4
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    I ported #1-2 out to the gasket on the floor as well. cant hurt and can only help prevent revision.

    I found a used T3 garret turbo gasket and placed it on the manifold.
    Then opened the manifold and turbo up to the T3 gasket.



    then i had the manifold mating surface flat ground. and then localy cerakoted.





    then dont forget the compressor

  5. #5
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Well, I opened up the outlet of the manifold on this one more than any other I'd done before. I did take out the lumps from the studs in 3 and 4, but left the ports pretty well alone. I hogged out 1 and 2 to beat the band.

    As with anything good in life, you don't know if you've gone too far until you've pushed straight through. I'll need to have a bead of weld added to the bottom back side of the flange for the turbo. There was a thin spot right near the lower right hand side stud which allowed for the burr to break through. No big deal, as I have a place right down the street which should be able to tackle the job. These things are cast steel right?

  6. #6
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Keep in mind that while you are porting for flow, you are also trying to equalize Volume per cyl as much as possible. (eq length)

    So #1 being the furthest away, I just clean and concentrate on smooth flow while opening up the entry to desired size. Where #1 merges with # 2 is where I start to increase Volume of flow, as #2 is closer and I want to slow it down More than #1.

    3 & 4 I hog out as much as possible, Again, to Slow down the flow as much as possible with Volume as they are the closest to the exit.

    I don't mess with the turbine housing much, clean and smooth, then I match the mani to the turbo inlet size.

    The rest of the work is concentrated on the outlet of the mani. Creating a "divider" for the entrance from each side and making sure that 3 & 4 have enough "mouth" on them to volume flow equally to the exit.
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    Robert Mclellan
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  7. #7
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    That is very interesting. You're not worried at all about 3 and 4 outflowing 1 and 2, causing a lean condition in 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2?

  8. #8
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    That is very interesting. You're not worried at all about 3 and 4 outflowing 1 and 2, causing a lean condition in 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2?
    If that was a concern I wouldn't use the piece at all, considering in it's stock form, it would have the Worse miss match

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  9. #9
    boostaholic Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    That is very interesting. You're not worried at all about 3 and 4 outflowing 1 and 2, causing a lean condition in 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2?
    I think one of Stuart's posts over in the "development of turbo engines" thread kind of covers this. He made a comment that while the stock manifold looks awful, tons of testing on the dyno showed that it wasn't a restriction to these engines making power. That's why they never went any further developing anything different.

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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Rob (Shadow) I've seen pics of your Ex Manifold before and you've been pretty active in defending what it can be modified to do if enough time is spent on cutting and shaping.(Header Hater LOL) I rememeber thinking yours was probably the most extensively ported that I'd seen. But in those last couple pics with it bolted to the head I cant help but wonder why you didn't cut the exhaust ports in the head WIDER? Did you do flow testing and not show gains with wider ports? While I've ported dozens of TM heads I just have kinda gone by instinct and my basic knowledge of airflow management thru the heads/manifolds. I've done lotsa 8V's, about 3 each of the TIII's and Masi 16V's but not spent the time or money of post porting flowbenching. A local guy here has flowed practically everything TM, his little notebook of numbers goes back to the 70's on many different heads and builds from all kinds of mopars. I credit him with teaching me about getting the flow as EQUAL as possible in a piece. His 'stock appearing' Masi 16V IN manifold was cut open and divertors and channels welded into it just to get all the ports to flow equally. it's a work of art and I've learned a ton of porting tricks from him. Sadly his health hasn't allowed him to do much in the last 4-5 yeas but he feels like he may be improving enough to finish a couple project TM's

    AJ (no More Alan) 84 Rampage RT TIII/568 Quaife 87 GLHS dealer optioned Red 16V Masi/568/Quaife
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  11. #11
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.216VTurbo View Post
    Rob (Shadow) I've seen pics of your Ex Manifold before and you've been pretty active in defending what it can be modified to do if enough time is spent on cutting and shaping.(Header Hater LOL) I rememeber thinking yours was probably the most extensively ported that I'd seen. But in those last couple pics with it bolted to the head I cant help but wonder why you didn't cut the exhaust ports in the head WIDER? Did you do flow testing and not show gains with wider ports?
    That particular head is going to see no more than 400-450WHP and spend most of it's life as a street cruiser. One of the biggest misconceptions in our community is that the exhaust side of the head is a bigger problem than the intake side. With it only being a +1mm valve head I haven't seen the need for a larger port for this HP level.

    Now, If I were to increase the port and/or valve size on the intake side, well, that Could be a different story...........

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  12. #12
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Very interesting. I've been thinking about your earlier post for a while now, and my only conclusion is that I don't understand dynamic events when it comes to flow very well at all.

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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Very interesting. I've been thinking about your earlier post for a while now, and my only conclusion is that I don't understand dynamic events when it comes to flow very well at all.
    Without a degree in fluid dynamics, I thinks any of us will struggle somewhat with the theory behind why this stuff works.

    Rob & Stuart(along with others) have made mention many times that these engines like efficiency of flow, not necessarily volume of flow. I think that is what trips up most folks. The old big block style theory of sewer pipe sized ports & exhaust doesn't necessarily work for our engines. The combo has to be optimized from beginning to end to work correctly. That part of the theory I understand, how to make it happen, well, I'll defer that to others...

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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by 83scamp View Post
    Without a degree in fluid dynamics, I thinks any of us will struggle somewhat with the theory behind why this stuff works.

    Rob & Stuart(along with others) have made mention many times that these engines like efficiency of flow, not necessarily volume of flow. I think that is what trips up most folks. The old big block style theory of sewer pipe sized ports & exhaust doesn't necessarily work for our engines. The combo has to be optimized from beginning to end to work correctly. That part of the theory I understand, how to make it happen, well, I'll defer that to others...
    The RPM range vs. the displacement of the engine has a lot to do the volume/cross sectional area required to perform the best! wallaceracing.com/ automotive calculators has always helped me with required port size and more!
    Last edited by glhs875; 07-31-2017 at 10:21 AM.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    Very interesting. I've been thinking about your earlier post for a while now, and my only conclusion is that I don't understand dynamic events when it comes to flow very well at all.
    Here's how I think of it. (Lizard brain methodology )

    First off, Forget that Any part of the exhaust mani is a restriction that the exhaust Can't overcome! If you can't get past it being a Cork, you prob won't be able to wrap your head around what I'm about to say.

    So the mani Can flow what it needs to. (enough cross section to get the job done)

    All we are going to try to do is Equalize, to the best of our ability, the 4 paths that the Expanding exhaust is taking. Since #1 is the furthest away, it needs the Most acceleration through the runner to get to where its going. Clean and smooth, but any Increase in cross section = More space for the exhaust to Expand into = Slower flow = Compound the unequal length problem.

    # 3 & #4 are the shortest paths, so these two are the one you want to Increase the cross section as much as possible to give the Expanding exhaust More room (volume) to Expand into, thus Slowing down the exhaust flow.

    When thinking about air being blown through, Or when you consider that a single exhaust stroke would fill the entire mani it doesn't make much sense.

    Think about say, 30psi of sustained pressure that the exhaust is trying to expand into may change the way you see it though. Picture the exhaust Pulsing through the runners. Now picture how much Further the pulse Moves in cyl #1 (smaller cross section) vs Cyl #4 (larger cross section).

    Does it make That much difference? No clue! lol It's just the way that made sense to me and have always done it that way and no reason to believe any different because of the Results I've seen

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
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    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  16. #16
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    ^Yep, you're ready for an equal length header

    AJ (no More Alan) 84 Rampage RT TIII/568 Quaife 87 GLHS dealer optioned Red 16V Masi/568/Quaife
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    89 TC Masi 16V Red/Ginger/Black
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    89 Turbo Mini 'Woody' 85 GLHT 'RedBox'
    2014 Explorer DD'r 3.5Twin Turbo Ecoboost AWD and 500HP
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  17. #17
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    I should add, that after saying all that, I only expected it to work till I reached the limit of the #1 cyl runner lol

    That is to say; once the cross section of the longer #1 cyl runner Does become a sig restriction, then I would expect the other ports to begin to Outflow the #1 runner.

    I originally thought I was good to 500WHP, and I Could be at the limits now and could "test" this if I were to Tap the #1 runner and compare drive pressure vs the inlet to the turbine housing.

    I only know I've seen Zero evidence, component wise, reading plugs ect ect of anything "out of balance". Not to mention that the 2.2 in the Charger is one of the Longest serving engines at this power level that I'm aware of in our community..........

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  18. #18
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    Thanks. That does make a lot of sense when viewed that way.

  19. #19
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    When I read about the volume increases and such, what my head is screaming is that you are balancing out the pressure in the ports more than anything else. In turn this helps overall efficiency of the engine and increases overall flow (read: power). The turbo works off of a pressure differential. With a large volume before the turbine, which is moving slowly, you have a large pressure, and then of course with a "sewer pipe" for a downpipe, the differential in pressure is HUGE.

    Rob, you've measured your drive pressure before at the turbine, have you ever tried to look at individual cylinders? This is where individual EGT probes come in (along with old-school plug reading) as they can tell you about the balance between cylinders.

  20. #20
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Ported Stockers Revisited

    I haven't looked at individual cyl's, always Thought I was so close to an EQ length header swap that it wouldn't be worth it. lol

    It's important to keep the turbine housing scroll Close in mind while thinking this through. The expanding gasses will have to Compress again while they Squeeze through that restriction!

    It's prob harder for most to visualize because the #3 & 4 runners are so short. Imagine instead an eq length header with 2 runners 1.5" ID and 2 runners 1.68" ID going into a .63 A/R stage 1 turbine housing/ wheel.

    Which 2 cyl's are going to outflow the other 2?

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

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