There are only two people that I know of that were able to control the 41TE with an after market controller. Una used Megashift which is an older version of Megasquirt/Microsquirt but all his info has been deleted off the web. And RacerSteve from the Neon.org forums but he was using something other than Megasquirt/Microsquirt.Originally Posted by c2xejk
Maybe I'm being a bit "caveman", but my understanding is that this family of transmissions are what I'd call sequential shifting, which is to say (much like a turbo 400) to get a particular gear, one element is engaged one "on top" of the other.
This has always been a feature I liked about the turbo400 and never liked about the 904/727, that one just added another element (400) whereas the other had to disengage one element and simultaneously engage another, with the inherent timing issues that come with that sort of arrangement (904/727).
That being said (and assuming my memory is correct...), then controlling these type of transmissions should be quite simple, feed pressure to one element (for first), then add the next element (for 2nd), etc. I know that this would likely be harsh, not being familiar with whether or not these circuits have accumulators (and what size they'd be, etc), but it seems like basic operation could be had by a rudimentary shifter that triggered each element/solenoid as it was moved through the gears. Yes, it wouldn't really be an automatic, more tiptronic, but it would still allow the use of these transmissions in performance applications without the need for expensive controllers...
Feel free to educate me if I'm off-base here, I'd love to know more...
Mike
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Was Una info on a forum or on a website? If website, link me.
are they developing the code to control a 41TE again?
Brian
There was a thread, maybe on TD maybe on the MS forums? I asked about it a few years ago when I was debating 41AE vs 5 speed for my AWD swap and he told me that he had it working but essentially said it wasn't worth it and don't bother.
https://youtu.be/krL6v1h6jog
EDIT: found the thread, it was on the .org https://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.p...41te&start=840
Last edited by moparman76_69; 11-01-2017 at 06:30 PM.
Judging from how well MS works with HEP (it doesn't)... don't hold your breath.
I'm using Microsquirt to try and control it. Una used a GPIO board, which is a universal type controller that you assemble but it's still in the Megasquirt family. Microsquirt comes pre assembled. Racer Steve from Neon.org forums used a different controller than Megaquirt.
That helped. I found info.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011...---custom.htmlSo I finally managed to kill the 4 speed automatic I had been trying for about a year to get working. I got pretty close to having it work perfectly. In the end, it seems that it's weakest link, the overdrive hub, snapped off, leaving the trans with no 3rd or 4th gear. I might try again at some point in the future, but I'm not making any promises.
I found the 41TE wiki page, not complete and not much information on it that can help. Una complain no one helped on the 41TE wiki and he put all info in it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110828...neonsquirt.com
https://web.archive.org/web/20100719.../41te/doku.php
I did found some videos that might help though.
Voltage to determine what gear position.
http://clipous.com/watch?v=b2ViTTFYd2w5Zkk
41TE control by MS
http://clipous.com/watch?v=a3JMNnYxaDZqb2c
https://forums.neons.org/posting.php...=123&p=3169213So I learned something very noteworthy today. I was removing my 41te to swap a 31th in (long story). While I had them both out, I removed both torque converters, grabbed my calipers and started making some measurements. After measuring everything, I decided that the torque converters were the same, so I took my torque converter from the 41te (mexican turbo version, so it had a 2800-3200 stall speed) and swapped it into the 31th that I'd just picked up at the JY from a '96 SOHC Neon.
I finished the swap, and it works. So if you have a built TC for a 31th, you can use it in a 41te, and if you want a easy turbo friendly TC for a 31th, just find a turbo PT Cruiser for a donor..
Last edited by tryingbe; 11-02-2017 at 06:42 PM.
The 41TE uses pulse width modulation to control shifts. It's not as simple as turn one thing off, turn another thing on.
As far as I know, nobody is doing anything with the 41TE for Megasquirt.
Well...kind of.
1st: UD, Low/R
2nd: UD, 2/4
3rd: UD, OD
4th: OD, 2/4
So there's still release timing that has to be taken into account (shift overlap). There's a piston that slides back and forth to activate the Low/R and 2/4 clutch packs. Of course it's controlled by hydraulic pressure, but getting out the fluid from the one side so the clutches don't drag while the piston moves to apply the other clutches could still cause issues with fast shifting. I know my last 604 broke that piston into 3 pieces!!
The biggest trick in controlling the shifting seems to be the "magic" of regaining access to the Low/R pack after shifting to 2nd and higher. There's a "special sequence" that the solenoids have to go through in order to unlock a "solenoid switch valve" that allows 1 solenoid to control 2 elements. I've not read anywhere what that sequence is. A few people have "torture tested" the solenoids with promising results, so direct actuation via on/off versus a PWM should be doable.
I also tend to believe that a sort of "dumb controller" could be made for these transmissions that allowed at least manual shift control. I'm thinking of using the turbine in/out sensors to basically come up with a slew rate for rpm difference over time and just make the thing aim for a certain amount of time to attain a known rpm difference (indicating the different gear ratios to the controller).
L/R and 2/4 are two different clutch assemblys independent of eachother. UD,OD and reverse are all in the input clutch assembly with the shared components.
1994 Shadow Sedan. 2.2 N/A, A568 400,000 miles. "the science experiment"
1987 Shelby CSX #418. Long term rebuild and restore ?
The Rams used the 44 or 46RE which was partially electronic and calibrated within the JTEC.
It's a bit more complex than that.
The older transmissions mentioned have hydraulic valve manipulation - in other words, when a shift is scheduled the apply hydraulically initiates the release element.
This does not hold true with the clutch to clutch shifts occur on a 545RFE and 41TE, or otherwise.
There are "time to slip" tables that adapt to identify when the release element has lost torque capacity and the apply element volume has built enough to complete the shift.
It is a very complex method to electronically manipulate the delayed response of hydraulics.
This is why so few companies have successfully achieved good controls.
This is getting closer to how things actually work.
The LR is only used to keep the ORC alive during launch - it provides added support to ground the clutch and provides reverse mode operation.
Although, the LR release method is simple... once the vehicle achieves a calibratable output speed, the LR is released and the ORC handles the task alone.
This is because the input torque TCC multiplication reduces as vehicle speed increases thus reducing the need for the LR assist to avoid hardware damage.
This is now moving the conversation onto the SSV (Solenoid Switch Valve) which allows control over two modes of operation via a single PWM solenoid.
So, other specific numbers for delay shift. What is holding this project up?
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/...ntrol-1.0.html
Mostly that most of the community doesnt understand in basic terms how the 604 works and theres a chicken and egg problem between the people with functional 604 cars who've been willing to be guinea pigs (such as myself and Force Fed Mopar) and the roughly 2 people who conceivably could modify the code and have actually considered doing so for the community. It's been a tough nut to crack.
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
The beta MS Tran software has removed 41TE support. If anyone want MS to shift 41TE, this is your last chance to get the ball rolling and get started.
Una quit because because of the hardware failure, not because of the software didn't work.
Last edited by tryingbe; 11-04-2017 at 04:47 AM.
so is someone going to work on it in MS land?
Brian
iirc, when i watched unas videos, it seemed to flare pretty bad, like the release/apply timing was off.
are they going to just get thing thing to shift like someone with a box full of switches?
or are they going to look at the input/output speed sensors and create adaptives to control slip/flare/shift firmness?
for a drag only car, just controlling the timing of the shifts so it doesnt bind/flare is fine. for something that sees more varied conditions its going to need some adaptive control.
Brian
ZERO person is working on it. I would assume whatever Una had working is whatever in the firmware now, I don't care for 41TE, I'm only in this thread because A. J. needs help.
SUPPORT is being suspended in the future if nothing changes.
http://www.msextra.com/downloads/dev...e-1-0-2-beta3/
41TE support disabled.
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