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Thread: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

  1. #41
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I really think we should be using ignition cut on shift it will save many other parts. Doing it on the a413 seems only possible with a micro switch on the shifter
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0 The Junkyard- [I]Now[/I] - Megasquirt II/Extra. OEM 10:1 3.0 n/a. -[I] Old - [/I]11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 516whp 519wtq 20psi 91 oct [U]built[/U] 3.0 stock n/a computer 1994 Spirit 3.0 - 12.9@106 10 psi - Daily Holset He341 280whp 304ft/lb 1994 Spirit 3.0 A670 - Wife's 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.5 T1 31TH 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts 1983 Starlet KP61 Parked 1998 Dodge 12v Cummins 47re 4x4 4dr longbed [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #42
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Hello,
    The switches that are being referred to are the signals from the 'code plate'.
    This is what the transmission uses to determine the actual position of the manual valve.
    This is critical as various gears can be accomplished by various means based on where the manual valve resides.

    I have always been interested in this topic as I own a Mexican 41TE case which means it has the bell housing provision for the 2.2/2.5 rather than the later 2.4 due to the change in the starter bell location.
    Yes - the Autostick function was pathetic at best because there are three stages to the shift which delay response.
    They are split as such:

    Fast Fill - this is the shift stage that pre-fills the clutch to the upper touch point just prior to the build of torque capacity
    Torque phase - this is the second phase which duty cycles the PWM to achieve a point to begin the inertial phase
    Inertial phase - this is the speed change portion of the shift that moves us from one ratio to another

    What's awful about the aftermarket systems is that they do not replicate or support these phases - I'm attempting to correct this.

  3. #43
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Well...we need help! LOL

    Is the programming on the older TCM's the same as the programming in the integrated controllers? Meaning, could already defined programming from JTEC's and the like be used to define what's on the stand-alone TCM's?

  4. #44
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    My '91 Daytona knows what position the selector is in, and definitely doesn't have any switches inside the car. It is all internal to the trans on the 604/41te. The shift points and lockup schedule is changed when you put it in 3 instead of OD.

    Shelgame had mentioned that part of the programing wasn't on the main chip in the TCM, but hidden somewhere else in it and that was the main blockade to further development.

    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  5. #45
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DIGITS View Post

    Fast Fill - this is the shift stage that pre-fills the clutch to the upper touch point just prior to the build of torque capacity
    Torque phase - this is the second phase which duty cycles the PWM to achieve a point to begin the inertial phase
    Inertial phase - this is the speed change portion of the shift that moves us from one ratio to another

    What's awful about the aftermarket systems is that they do not replicate or support these phases - I'm attempting to correct this.
    This would be great! Especially if it was just being able to reprogram the factory TCM with different shift timing and shift up/down points.

    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  6. #46
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Oh yeah...I remember the whole thing about the programming not being all on the one chip. Forgot about that.

  7. #47
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DIGITS View Post
    Hello,
    The switches that are being referred to are the signals from the 'code plate'.
    This is what the transmission uses to determine the actual position of the manual valve.
    This is critical as various gears can be accomplished by various means based on where the manual valve resides.

    I have always been interested in this topic as I own a Mexican 41TE case which means it has the bell housing provision for the 2.2/2.5 rather than the later 2.4 due to the change in the starter bell location.
    Yes - the Autostick function was pathetic at best because there are three stages to the shift which delay response.
    They are split as such:

    Fast Fill - this is the shift stage that pre-fills the clutch to the upper touch point just prior to the build of torque capacity
    Torque phase - this is the second phase which duty cycles the PWM to achieve a point to begin the inertial phase
    Inertial phase - this is the speed change portion of the shift that moves us from one ratio to another

    What's awful about the aftermarket systems is that they do not replicate or support these phases - I'm attempting to correct this.
    I would love to see this correction! So much fiddling we can't do!
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0 The Junkyard- [I]Now[/I] - Megasquirt II/Extra. OEM 10:1 3.0 n/a. -[I] Old - [/I]11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 516whp 519wtq 20psi 91 oct [U]built[/U] 3.0 stock n/a computer 1994 Spirit 3.0 - 12.9@106 10 psi - Daily Holset He341 280whp 304ft/lb 1994 Spirit 3.0 A670 - Wife's 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.5 T1 31TH 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts 1983 Starlet KP61 Parked 1998 Dodge 12v Cummins 47re 4x4 4dr longbed [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #48
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    Well...we need help! LOL

    Is the programming on the older TCM's the same as the programming in the integrated controllers? Meaning, could already defined programming from JTEC's and the like be used to define what's on the stand-alone TCM's?
    The best approach may be to use a JTEC from the 2.5 while enabling the boost controls from the diesel.
    This is done through the configuration 'section set', for those that know what that is.
    The early over-lay harness from a 45RFE OR Mexican 41TE could then be modified and re-wired for solenoid pack and code plate.
    The cals from a prowler EATX have more aggressive Fast-Fill, Torque-Phase and Speed Change cals, which would work well as a starting point.
    The hard(er) part then becomes getting the engine RPM signal (pulses) aligned for the 2.2/2.5L so that TCC LU and slip control functions without error.
    This is a calculation done by the EATX and if they are not correct, a barrage of faults will be set.

    Also, please consider that the earlier 41TE controls did not utilize the manual valve code plate and some diagnostics may need to be disabled to over-come errors.
    This is no easy task but support will be provided where ever possible for anyone serious enough to attempt it.

  9. #49
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I'm interested in attempting to run a 41TE behind a ~500hp 2.4L, but like AJ, I have a NGC crank trigger pattern that I'm not sure how any older TCM would work with. If there's any TCM that only needs a tach signal/square wave it might work, but tach and NGC trigger pattern are the only signals available for rpm with Megasquirt.

  10. #50
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DIGITS View Post
    The best approach may be to use a JTEC from the 2.5 while enabling the boost controls from the diesel.
    This is done through the configuration 'section set', for those that know what that is.
    The early over-lay harness from a 45RFE OR Mexican 41TE could then be modified and re-wired for solenoid pack and code plate.
    The cals from a prowler EATX have more aggressive Fast-Fill, Torque-Phase and Speed Change cals, which would work well as a starting point.
    The hard(er) part then becomes getting the engine RPM signal (pulses) aligned for the 2.2/2.5L so that TCC LU and slip control functions without error.
    This is a calculation done by the EATX and if they are not correct, a barrage of faults will be set.

    Also, please consider that the earlier 41TE controls did not utilize the manual valve code plate and some diagnostics may need to be disabled to over-come errors.
    This is no easy task but support will be provided where ever possible for anyone serious enough to attempt it.
    I think old tachs that were switchable to use on 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines used the same position for 4 and 8 cylinders. But that's probably because the read off the coil neg, not a tone wheel.

    I'm running one behind a 3.0 V6 in a '91 Daytona. I thought about trying a Prowler trans controller in it but they are somewhat rare and seem to bring $$$ when you find them. Is there a way to flash a regular controller with the Prowler calibration?

    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  11. #51
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    I think old tachs that were switchable to use on 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines used the same position for 4 and 8 cylinders. But that's probably because the read off the coil neg, not a tone wheel.

    I'm running one behind a 3.0 V6 in a '91 Daytona. I thought about trying a Prowler trans controller in it but they are somewhat rare and seem to bring $$$ when you find them. Is there a way to flash a regular controller with the Prowler calibration?
    Let me see if this can still be done - I wrote a neck snapping version of the Prowler cal but it has been ages since.
    What year EATX ?

  12. #52
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by 5DIGITS View Post
    Let me see if this can still be done - I wrote a neck snapping version of the Prowler cal but it has been ages since.
    What year EATX ?
    Well, I'm in a '91 Daytona that has the original EATX controller still, but I can get a different year if that would help. Did they ever change the wiring on them? I also have a 91 awd van EATX controller that has a sticker on it indicating it had updated software installed in '99 I had been thinking of trying out.

    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC
    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
    '91 Daytona ES, 61k original miles, Rick Lozier's old 3.0 nitrous car
    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  13. #53
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Back when i had an a606 Intrepid that had a very annoying forced 3-4 upshift at 5500 (instead of 6500 which was still too low for that engine after mods), i had an extra TCM i was trying to get a dealership tech to flash to a prowler cal as it was the only one that i knew of at the time that would not force an early 3-4 upshift and would also not force upshifts at redline.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  14. #54
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Did the dealer do it?

  15. #55
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Back when i had an a606 Intrepid that had a very annoying forced 3-4 upshift at 5500 (instead of 6500 which was still too low for that engine after mods), i had an extra TCM i was trying to get a dealership tech to flash to a prowler cal as it was the only one that i knew of at the time that would not force an early 3-4 upshift and would also not force upshifts at redline.
    The other EATX cal without the forced up shift was the 300M Special.

    As an added note, these were written with some level of flexibility.
    The engine ID was sent on the bus which allowed for the EATX to have multiple shift maps, WOT, A/S and TCC cals and select them based on the ID used.
    This avoided re-flashing because the alternate strategies were already there.
    Although, the Prowler was unique and was a single cal system for limited volume production.. It was a way to insure Prowler cals were not available unless a module was purchased.

    Additionally much like the old SBEC's, the EATX modules were not all "stuffed" with every circuit.
    For example, if an Autostick shifter was added to a car not originally equipped, an A/S (Auto Stick) module must be installed for the system to work.

    Finally, I'm trying to recall when the PROM was replaced by flash and when the code-plate came into effect.
    From this, the needed EATX can be narrowed down to units supporting CCD, not J-1850.
    Which means anyone desiring this arrangement must be utilize a later model SBEC in order to obtain communication with the EATX.

  16. #56
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I thought that the flashable TCM's came out around '92?

    It really almost sounds like the original suggestion of trying to go to a 2.5 JTEC controller would be a better way to go.

  17. #57
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post

    It really almost sounds like the original suggestion of trying to go to a 2.5 JTEC controller would be a better way to go.
    Megasquirt can communicate with Microsquirt via CAN network that's why I'm using/sticking with Microsquirt.
    <a href=http://s42.photobucket.com/user/thebest4/media/SRT-4/IMG_3442_zps1ebchuzf.jpg.html target=_blank rel=nofollow><a href=http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/SRT-4/IMG_3442_zps1ebchuzf.jpg target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps1ebchuzf.jpg</a></a>

  18. #58
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    I thought that the flashable TCM's came out around '92?

    It really almost sounds like the original suggestion of trying to go to a 2.5 JTEC controller would be a better way to go.
    Just be aware that the JTEC was never configured to communicate with a 41TE, in production.

  19. #59
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    OK...this is my ignorance of newer stuff showing, but then how did the trucks control the 45RFE and such? Those are JTEC, right? I *know* my '99 Ram has transmission controls, but that's not really an electronically shifted transmission...

  20. #60

    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Megasquirt can communicate with Microsquirt via CAN network that's why I'm using/sticking with Microsquirt.
    So were are you (or others) on using a Megasquirt/Microsquirt to control a 41TE/604 trans?

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