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Thread: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

  1. #121
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    https://www.powertraincontrolsolutio...on_Controller/

    Company is still in business. The people who actually used one had issues trying to use the transmission on the street. That's the issue with the transmission, you tune it under WOT then everything else is completely different at different throttle positions. I've talked to Jay at PCS and we've talked for a strict drag race application WOT condition could be tuned.

  2. #122
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    https://www.powertraincontrolsolutio...on_Controller/

    Company is still in business. The people who actually used one had issues trying to use the transmission on the street. That's the issue with the transmission, you tune it under WOT then everything else is completely different at different throttle positions. I've talked to Jay at PCS and we've talked for a strict drag race application WOT condition could be tuned.
    Based on taking no regard for wear on shift timing since there would be no attempt at slipping between gears to make things smooth...
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  3. #123
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Today I had randomly started searching for PT GT’s for my wife to drive around in until I decide to turn them into a donor car for something cool, I started thinking about the 41te in any other application.

    I remember years ago I read on 2gn.org (a neon site) about a guy who had done an SRT swap on his 03 neon but kept the 4 speed auto. He claimed he was shifting the car with switches wired to the solenoid packs since he didn’t have a PT GT pcm. I know people do this on GM 4l60/80 transmissions, on 4 speed auto 4g63 cars, and the a340 behind 2jz cars. I’m sure in a street application it would break the transmission but if someone is just trying to drag race would this idea work? Or because of how the trans is designed would it simply fry a clutch pack before the gear change is done?

  4. #124
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by INVUJerry View Post
    Today I had randomly started searching for PT GT’s for my wife to drive around in until I decide to turn them into a donor car for something cool, I started thinking about the 41te in any other application.

    I remember years ago I read on 2gn.org (a neon site) about a guy who had done an SRT swap on his 03 neon but kept the 4 speed auto. He claimed he was shifting the car with switches wired to the solenoid packs since he didn’t have a PT GT pcm. I know people do this on GM 4l60/80 transmissions, on 4 speed auto 4g63 cars, and the a340 behind 2jz cars. I’m sure in a street application it would break the transmission but if someone is just trying to drag race would this idea work? Or because of how the trans is designed would it simply fry a clutch pack before the gear change is done?
    It would either bind or flare depending on when you flicked the switches cause it's a clutch release to another clutch apply shift style. From what I gather, the next gear clutch that is going to apply does some preparation and gets filled up and ready to apply precisely as the current gear clutch is releasing.

    It requires a lot of timing to be precise and adaptive to compensate for wear and part differences.

    In other words, switches won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  5. #125
    Garrett booster
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I mean, if we're serious enough about, I think this guy would try to do it. He's all about making quirky things on the cheap.

    http://www.twistedbuilds.com/categor...on-controller/

    That can be adapted to work for the 41TE I'm sure.

  6. #126
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockSyno View Post
    I mean, if we're serious enough about, I think this guy would try to do it. He's all about making quirky things on the cheap.

    http://www.twistedbuilds.com/categor...on-controller/

    That can be adapted to work for the 41TE I'm sure.
    that would work IF:

    he reads the patent docs on how the shift has to occur and then codes to re-create that as well as allowing for some adaptive code to adjust the shift based on input and output speed control and other factors to prevent bind or flare.

    what he is controlling now can be shifted no problem with toggle switches. a 4l80 or a 4l60 GM automatic is a simple few switches on or off to change gear.

    a buddy of mine had a p30 box truck with a GM 6.5 and a 4l80e. he shifted it with a few house light switches cause something was wrong with the controller.

    the chrysler 41te is alot more complicated.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  7. #127
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by WarlockSyno View Post
    I mean, if we're serious enough about, I think this guy would try to do it. He's all about making quirky things on the cheap.

    http://www.twistedbuilds.com/categor...on-controller/

    That can be adapted to work for the 41TE I'm sure.
    The way that the GM and Ford transmissions are controlled are totally different from the Chrysler algorithm. So, my confidence that a GM controller can operate a Chrysler transmission is *zero*.

    The Chrysler uses:
    turbine input speed
    turbine output speed
    VSS (pre '91)
    gear selector position
    line pressure
    transmission fluid temp
    throttle position sensor
    engine coolant temp
    MAP sensor
    engine rpm (I think over CCD Bus)

    I might be missing something because this is all off the top of my head.
    Using those inputs the TCM controls:
    4 solenoids (only 3 are used for 4 forward gears and 1 reverse...the 4th is for torque converter lock)
    *torque management request (from what I remember only later and 3.8L vehicles had this...works over the CCD Bus)

    The solenoids *can* withstand 100% duty cycle, but that's not how they work in normal operation. The TCM uses PWM's to actuate the solenoids. There's also a "special sequence" that allows the downshift into 1st gear as there's an internal "lock" that allows 1 solenoid to control 2 gear ratios. This sequence isn't very well described, even in the patents for the control system.

    So...there's the gist of the overall issue...we've been mucking with these ideas for 20 years. We even have "inside help" in the form of people who have/had access to development stuff. *ONE* person manually shifted their A604 on the street with minimal success. It ended up nuking OD by accidentally going into boost (OD can NOT take *any* power) IIRC and I don't think he had the finding to rebuild the tranny again. 2 Neon guys have used the PCM in drag race only applications with mixed results (though the feedback was VERY encouraging).

    In other words, this is one VERY tough nut to crack.

  8. #128
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Yet it seems 5digits could help if he had interest. Probably not.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  9. #129
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I’m sure in a street application it would break the transmission but if someone is just trying to drag race would this idea work?
    Not with simple switches per se but there was already a 1g neon that ran 10s on a 604 using an aftermarket controller with no 'adaptives'. The thing about using a 604 in a drag racing app is that 4th gear is mechanically/structurally weak so you can really only put power down in 1-3. Most the chrysler FWD motors have the option of just using the 3spd in that case. The 4spd is attractive for a street car that's not absurdly powerful because you can use lower overall 1-3 gearing and still end up with a better top gear cruising ratio. The thing about that is you can already more or less just do that with a stock controller, it just won't shift 'sporty' and will last somewhat less long than a stock application (keeping in mind that 604s were used in stock apps up to ~250tq with normal lifespans). Still longer than any controller with no adaptives.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #130
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Being able to control shift points would be a first nice step.

    Syke seems to have control over 1997 and later model stuff, which would include late model crank trigger 3.0 setups which would also have 41te options. He has nothing for the older models. Its sad to see this stuff all die when it could live another life.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  11. #131
    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Since this is a 41TE/A604 thread, has anyone been able to maybe reflash the EATX computer itself? Other question, is there any newer valve body (I actually have a 40 or 41TE from a 2000 Stratus 2.4L NA engine) that has any way of controlling the line pressure either with a vacuum/pressure modulator or a PWM solenoid valve? FWIW, the solenoid pack on the 2000 had the electrical connector mangled when it was wrecked so I opened it, way different than the older units and it is the style Chrysler sells as the replacement for the older units.

  12. #132
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    i purchased a drb2 eatx flash setup off ebay that i'm still waiting on to receive. once i get that i'll need to locate an eatx controller and then look at monitoring signals, programming routines/protocols. i'll post more when i have a better idea what's up.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
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    Hybrid booster Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Do you need one to play with? I think at last count I have 3, but one is a real early one.

  14. #134
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    eventually, i want to first play with a couple sbec2 ecu's i have here to fully understand what i will be able to track/figure out. i'll keep you in mind.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  15. #135
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    Quote Originally Posted by wowzer View Post
    eventually, i want to first play with a couple sbec2 ecu's i have here to fully understand what i will be able to track/figure out. i'll keep you in mind.
    I have 2 Spirit E.S.'s with 41TE. 1993 and 1990. Totally stock. Hoping to play with the sbec2 soon at least with rev limiter and speed limiter knocked off or bumped up for now.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  16. #136
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    brent, i did post up 92 sbec2 cals (t1, v6) some time back here http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...als&highlight=

    if you have one of the boostbutton sbec2 flash modules you should be able to tweak away.
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

  17. #137
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I have about 6 or 7 EATX controllers, some disassembled, came from Rob L. You are welcome to use them for testing whenever you get to that point.

    Wondering if just adding a crank sensor would allow us to use newer tuners to adjust shift points?
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  18. #138
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    ok thx. any ideas what years? chip numbers?
    89 Voyager LE, 2.5T2 - rest in peace
    87 Charger Shelby T2 (2.4 conversion in process)

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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    No, but I can look.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

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    Re: 41TE/604 operated by Megasquirt

    I had sent i think 2 of those to Rob back in the day. At least one of them was an 89 since thought back when was that it was closest to a standalone controller. I don't know if any of them are actually that much more complex as far as their inputs and outputs, but the code might be simpler to modify in one generation vs another.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

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