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Thread: ball bearing turbo.

  1. #1
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    ball bearing turbo.

    So I'm looking to restart a long stalled project. how does a ball bearing perform in a daily driver car. I was looking at a t3/4 50 trim thats currently in my Daytona but want something that has a little bit better spooling

  2. #2
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    So I'm looking to restart a long stalled project. how does a ball bearing perform in a daily driver car. I was looking at a t3/4 50 trim thats currently in my Daytona but want something that has a little bit better spooling
    Wayne Hemingway is one of several of our customers running our Dual Ball Bearing turbo in his mini van. I will let him know about this thread so he can chime in.

    Chris-TU
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  3. #3
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    It might be comparing apples to oranges since I have a 2.4 DOHC engine but I have a duel ball bearing turbo on my daily driven mini-van and I love it. It spools up faster than the S60 I started out with and is bigger. I got mine with the .75 turbine housing: https://agpturbo.com/agp-zeta-2-8-ball-bearing/

  4. #4
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    So I'm looking to restart a long stalled project. how does a ball bearing perform in a daily driver car. I was looking at a t3/4 50 trim thats currently in my Daytona but want something that has a little bit better spooling
    There are several benefits to a ball bearing turbo compared to a journal bearing turbo. And the biggest benefit is quicker spooling. The ball bearings have very little resistance, and the turbo free-wheels very easily as evidenced quite clearly when you have one in front of you that you spin with your fingers.
    When i was in the market for a special turbo to replace the Super 70 on MeanMini, a very experienced person advised against a ball bearing turbo. The biggest disadvantage is cost. But, i am glad i followed through and bought one as i wanted. I purchased my dual ball bearing turbo from Chris with some special upgrades, and ended up with a one-of-a-kind turbo that i am very pleased with.

    In a heavy car like a van or Daytona, going with a large turbo is going to increase lag, but with a ball bearing unit, and the available quick-spool option of a lightened wheel/shaft/turbine wheel, you can end up with a very responsive large turbo. Daily driving in a 5spd car would be where a ball bearing turbo would shine. Between shifts the turbo wouldn't slow down so much compared to the journal bearing turbo, and boost would build back quickly in the next gear. In my automatic that is less of a concern because i never lift between shifts, but the boost builds quickly in 1st when launching.

    Chris at TU can help give you recommendations if you provide some other build details. I am using several TU products in my build, and i have been very happy with the results. Currently the van is now the fastest no-nitrous van on the mopar-times page and www.dragtimes.com and may have another update this Sunday! The turbo is not even at its limits yet, I've only been running at about 25psi max right now.

    Some of the total power combo TU products i am using: TU GT3076 turbo, TU cast iron header, TU R5 cam, TU high flow fuel rail, and other support products like gaskets, stud kits, replacement parts, etc.

    Please let me know if this helps, or if you have further questions.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
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  5. #5
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Tu has always been great I have been dealing with him now for years. stand up guy. Yea I'm hoping Chris might has a f5 cam hidden on the shelf somewhere lol

    I was happy with my daytona build just wanted to help with the lag a bit.

  6. #6
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    Tu has always been great I have been dealing with him now for years. stand up guy. Yea I'm hoping Chris might has a f5 cam hidden on the shelf somewhere lol

    I was happy with my daytona build just wanted to help with the lag a bit.
    I believe the "F5 cam" is a FWD Performance product.
    Last time i talked to Chris about cams he was in the process of some spring cleaning, and he might have found some older TU cam versions. The latest of his cam profiles is the TU R5 roller cam. I'm not sure what he has left at this point. Give him a call as i think he was expecting to get restocked.
    The thing about our niche cars, with so little aftermarket product support, patience is usually required. So if there aren't any right now, there will be. Just fyi. You may already know this.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  7. #7
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    It was always my understanding that ball bearings really do not make much of a difference in spool. When ball bearing turbos first started becoming popular, their quicker spool was more factually attributed to the more modern wheels and housings of the turbos than the bearings themselves.
    Last edited by contraption22; 02-17-2017 at 10:25 AM.
    Mike Marra
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  8. #8
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    oops the r5

  9. #9
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    It was always my understanding that ball bearings really do not make much of a difference in spool. When ball bearing turbos first started becoming popular, their quicker spool was more factually attributed to the more modern wheels and housings of the turbos than the bearings themselves.
    Interesting. I wasn't sure we'd ever disagree on something turbo-mopar related... however i'll chalk it up to a draw, because of your use of the word "understanding". And maybe my "understanding" is not sound?

    I think if you compare exactly sized turbos, with the only difference being bearing type it would be clear.
    However, if people are comparing a much larger dbb turbo with a smaller journal bearing unit they are replacing, they may find spool time being similar.
    My dbb turbo easily still spins for close to 30 seconds (or more, never actually clocked it) following turning ignition off. It has so little bearing resistance and spins so freely. The only way to truly bench test compare would be to have the oil pressure supplied to the journal bearing turbo. With the oil wedge the shaft is supported, but those close tolerances and oil pressure provides some resistance to spinning.

    This would make a good test for something like enginemasters. If you could measure turbo shaft revs.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  10. #10
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Interesting. I wasn't sure we'd ever disagree on something turbo-mopar related... however i'll chalk it up to a draw, because of your use of the word "understanding". And maybe my "understanding" is not sound?

    I think if you compare exactly sized turbos, with the only difference being bearing type it would be clear.
    However, if people are comparing a much larger dbb turbo with a smaller journal bearing unit they are replacing, they may find spool time being similar.
    My dbb turbo easily still spins for close to 30 seconds (or more, never actually clocked it) following turning ignition off. It has so little bearing resistance and spins so freely. The only way to truly bench test compare would be to have the oil pressure supplied to the journal bearing turbo. With the oil wedge the shaft is supported, but those close tolerances and oil pressure provides some resistance to spinning.

    This would make a good test for something like enginemasters. If you could measure turbo shaft revs.
    It could very well make a significant difference all other things being equal, although I have never seen a side by-side comparison.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  11. #11

    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    I thought there was a side by side comparison of the borg warner s256 to the gt30 and gains were minimal for the price difference? There was a thread on a site somewhere, I'll see if I can find it. Granted this was years ago, but unless they have come down in price or have made significant changes, I don't know what kind of a difference you'll see. Depends on your size of the turbo, engine setup, goals, etc., I would think.

    Link:

    http://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-...3076r-2220363/

    So less laggy, not significant gains. Can't see the dyno pics anymore, but guess the BW produced more HP. But not bad producing quicker spoolup with a larger AR housing. Don't know if they are worth the cost. I went with the BW s256 because I was given a good recommendation from someone running one for a while with no issues and an excellent engine builder.
    [SIZE="3"] [B]Jon Trotter[/B][/SIZE] [B]1985[/B] Dodge Shelby Charger, Currently decommissioned [B]1987[/B] Shelby GLHS, #937 [B]1987[/B] Shelby Lancer, #628 [QUOTE=Reeves;587010]I can be ready. Please send pics of wife. _____DodgeZ add comments here______[/QUOTE]

  12. #12
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by minigts View Post
    I thought there was a side by side comparison of the borg warner s256 to the gt30 and gains were minimal for the price difference? There was a thread on a site somewhere, I'll see if I can find it. Granted this was years ago, but unless they have come down in price or have made significant changes, I don't know what kind of a difference you'll see. Depends on your size of the turbo, engine setup, goals, etc., I would think.

    Link:

    http://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-...3076r-2220363/

    So less laggy, not significant gains. Can't see the dyno pics anymore, but guess the BW produced more HP. But not bad producing quicker spoolup with a larger AR housing. Don't know if they are worth the cost. I went with the BW s256 because I was given a good recommendation from someone running one for a while with no issues and an excellent engine builder.
    Two different families of turbos though....
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  13. #13

    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    I was providing the only comparison I had heard of that covered a good journal bearing turbo against a good BB turbo. Regardless, I don't think the dual BB turbos are worth the additional cost unless they are way cheaper than they used to be.
    [SIZE="3"] [B]Jon Trotter[/B][/SIZE] [B]1985[/B] Dodge Shelby Charger, Currently decommissioned [B]1987[/B] Shelby GLHS, #937 [B]1987[/B] Shelby Lancer, #628 [QUOTE=Reeves;587010]I can be ready. Please send pics of wife. _____DodgeZ add comments here______[/QUOTE]

  14. #14
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Guys can we a tally talk about the question in hand please

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Cost for most is a relevant concern. If money is no object, then you may as well go with a dbb turbo.
    Other benefits are said to be longevity, needs less oil, you can get closer tolerances between wheel and housing since a journal bearing needs more clearance (which should equal greater efficiency ).

    I tested my turbo free-wheel time yesterday, and it was still spinning 40 seconds after the car was shut off.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  16. #16
    turbo addict
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    Guys can we a tally talk about the question in hand please
    What answer do you want?

    Ball bearing spool up 15% faster than journal bearing...



    https://gcg.com.au/the-good-oil/turb...s-ball-bearing

  17. #17
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Ok and I would assume a dbb has a longer life span but on a daily driver will it hold

  18. #18
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr overkill View Post
    Ok and I would assume a dbb has a longer life span but on a daily driver will it hold
    Turbo will live for a long time if the oil feed is clean and good quality, oil return is free flowing, CBV/BOV is working, and the exhaust is not clogged.

    What bearings the turbo has makes no difference on how long it will last.

  19. #19
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    Mind the difference between boost threshold and speed response and the discussion could be more helpful. BB turbos are great for response. Boost threshold, is the RPM at which you begin spooling and then reach full Boost. Wheel design can affect both parameters. Lighter and BB will give great response. Billet can be smaller yet make the same power saving huge weight.

    BB I see as a rally and and road course requirement. Less helpful on streetcar.
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  20. #20
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    Re: ball bearing turbo.

    thanks ondonti

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