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Thread: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbro 25

  1. #41
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    The module style pump assembly has many benefits, that's the heart of the discussion.







    Given the original post summarized a problem and offered up a number of possible solutions, and others posted alternate solutions, I didn't realize the scope of this discussion was so narrow. It seems to me (in my opinion) using multiple electric pumps and/or jet pumps is overly complicating a problem that has an off the shelf solution-granted maybe I could have worded it better. To the original poster-if I derailed your discussion I apologize. Carry on!

  2. #42
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Any and all discussion in the general area of the topic is useful imo. If you want to talk about landing folks on Mars, then it should be a seperate thread!

    I would like to use that jet pump technology, as i think it is superior. However when you must consider a higher capacity pump for fueling needs, then in my opinion you need to consider the capacity loss from the constant recirc for the venturi loop.
    As previously mentioned, my Spectra Premium 1994 pump module doesn't seem to allow the removal and replacement of the actual pump.
    Randy has suggested from his or others experience the stock Mopar module can be disassembled and the pump replaced. In doing so, i believe i would need to get a higher capacity pump than my current 255lph because of that recirc loop.
    So, that being the case I'm left with few options. I really want a "one & done" type solution at this point. If i had a shop and lift and time to try different things that would be fine. Even now I'm not sure when i can even get this "fixed".
    I think my best bet is going to be using the new dorman replacement tank i had bought, along with either simply installing my existing pump hanger & pump from the installed tank (the 89 hanger with the walbro 255), or to continue to try and find a resevoir type module that i can install my 255lph pump into, even if i cant use the jet feature. (At least this way the return line returns fuel to the plastic reservoir around the pump further preventing any loss of pump suction.)
    Wayne H.

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  3. #43
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    It would be nice to know if the baffle in the Dorman tank, (which basically is just a 9" diameter bowl a couple inches tall) would be enough to solve this for me. But, i'm thinking it may still be an issue.
    All of us who have ever been in the situation would have to have similar unbaffled tanks.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
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  4. #44
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    id try to modify a factory fuel module so that the fuel return drives the venturi rather than the pump.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  5. #45
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    So of course, with SDAC27 fast approaching I am looking into stuff that has still been hanging out there.
    Last recent visit to the track i ended up with 3/4 tank of fuel and it kills me to think of that wasted weight savings.
    So i pulled out this pump module i had bought off ebay to once again look at it. But, the difference being i thought to myself, who cares if i break something! Well loe and behold, i actually got the pump out!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Now if i am to use this plastic reservoir and put my existing W 255lph pump in, i will need a sock for the foot valve. On these pump modules the reservoir has a check valve that lets tank level in. The sock on the module is for the jet pump suction.
    Although using the jet action would be cool for its benefits, i don't know how much fuel flow that will take away from the fuel flow to the rail, especially at high injector pulses. I wouldn't want to find the 255 can't manage fuel tequirements for 30+ psi boost because of what is being recirc'd for the jet.
    This pump modules return line goes back to the reservoir through a small check valve, and the entire module pivots a bit when installed to be sure the modules rubber feet are in the bottom of the tank.
    I can remove the return check valve to prevent any return restriction, since this return line is the smaller size.
    The supply line makes 2 90 bends at the module, where the module pivots.
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    My last thought, is i could drill a small hole in the top of the reservoir to be sure on low fuel use that the reservoir isn't being pressurized by the return flow. But also the internal tube from the jet suction sock that fills the reservoir normally should just flow out in those circumstances.

    Now the other option is to simply try and get a new pump, of a higher capacity and install in the module and use the jet action. But what pump capacity should i look to increase too? It might not be bad to be sure to have enough fuel if i ever run 40+psi boost and try to beat Shadow's record.... lol

    I honestly like this second option because i can work on it without having to remove the existing pump and render the car out of service!
    Either way, i think it isn't going to happen before SDAC, with my current time availability.

    Anyone know of a higher capacity pump in the 280-320 range that fits in this type module?
    Here is the stock pump that came in it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  6. #46
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Any thoughts on this as a replacement?
    http://aemelectronics.com/?q=product...p-center-inlet

    Seems to have about the correct dimensions, and although i don't have plans for E85, it is compatible.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  7. #47
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Have you considered an external surge tank? It's on my wish-list.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
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  8. #48
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Have you considered an external surge tank? It's on my wish-list.
    Yes, i was, but i didn't really want to have two fuel pumps running all the time. I have an underdrive pulley, and although i have a smaller alt pulley, i'm still marginal at idle.

    I'd have to think about having one that i could use the surge tank at the track, have the return line go to the surge tank and overflow back to the main tank. Then switch fuel pumps (electrically) at the track.
    But that means tubing and check valves also.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  9. #49
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Just did some test fitting, and the 1994 pump module does not fit into the baffled tank. The baffle bowl would need to be further toward the middle of the tank.
    Well, that settles that, it will have to be either or, rather than do both.
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    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  10. #50
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    While the van is at Brian's shop we are going to try some kind of fix for this issue. He has been working on other items first, and we should be getting close to starting on this, provided there is still time.
    The thought Brian and I had when i dropped it off with the parts above, the new Dorman tank with the baffle, and the cartridge pump housing, was to possibly modify the new tank to take away volume on each side of the mounting straps, effectively creating a sump for the pump.
    The more the volume gets reduced the more fuel level will be over the pump suction with the same quantity of fuel in the tank. Simple enough.

    The idea also has been tossed around for a second tank, or surge tank with its own pump. The fuel return from the FPR would return to the surge tank, but then an overflow line would have to go from the surge tank to the main fuel tank. The walbro 255 in the main tank would just fill the surge tank, and not directly supply the fuel rail or have to create much pressure (so the volume would be high at minimal pressure). Again overflow from the surge tank would have to go back to the main tank.
    The downside of this is having to drive two fuel pumps all the time. Which i wasn't keen on seeing as i have the underdrive pulley AND already drive an electric water pump all the time.

    But, i had a thought to only run the main tank fuel pump to fill the surge tank while in staging lanes, but then shut it off before running. This would avoid the main tank pump from sucking air, possibly overheating, and reducing its life from constant occurances of that condition.
    The surge tank would have to be sized big enough to have fuel enough for a run or two, to make sure it keeps a constant suction and good fuel pressure.
    But with a setup like this i could run with minimal fuel in the main tank. Would have to be able to see level in the surge tank, or at least see when it is full.

    Although under a daily driven scenario, i still would have to power both fuel pumps, but at the track i could go down to just the surge tank pump.

    I kind of like this idea, but don't know if it could be accomplished this visit at Brian's shop.
    Let me hear your thoughts, whoever is still watching this.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  11. #51
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Better option might be to mod the tank for rear sump pickup and use an external pump.
    Rob M.
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    2.5 TIII swap is here!

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  12. #52
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    yeah i would think a rear sumped tank with a curved baffle in front of the sump to keep some fuel at the sump while braking might be easier.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  13. #53
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr


    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #54
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Wayne I'm curious what you did for a fuel pump? Talking to my friend 83 rampage today reminded me of this thread.

    Thanks
    Randy


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  15. #55
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHS60 View Post
    Wayne I'm curious what you did for a fuel pump? Talking to my friend 83 rampage today reminded me of this thread.

    Thanks
    Randy
    Hi Randy.
    Actually I never resolved a change yet. As the van sits now, i have a stock replacement tank that has the baffle (shallow sheetmetal bowl with a couple holes in the bottom), and the Walbro 255LPH HP version from TU. I have 1000cc injectors and use 43psi base fuel pressure.

    Recently i replaced the "Ed Peters Viper pump" in my Spirit ES, and I went back with a Walbro 255 LPH HP in a stock 91 module. The 91 AA body module is different from the 94 minivan module. Although they both are pump in plastic reservoir, the Spirit doesn't have the jetpump venturi suction.

    Following that install, I thought i might use a similar module (to get a reservoir around the pump) but no jetpump. The hangers are a bit different shape though. The van tank is very shallow.

    There are some things i don't like about those modules though. The pump discharge gets small where it enters the module's discharge line, and it makes some sharp bends. It is designed to be right on the bottom of the tank, so there is a built in pivot and spring.

    So, it doesn't helpI know, but not sure what I'll do yet. For now I'm just for sure racing with at least 1/2 tank showing on my gauge, so thats probably 12 or more gallons in the tank! That's alot of senseless extra weight, but would have extra weight than have pump suck air right at my boost spike during launch!
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  16. #56
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    For anyone interested, there is a path forward and resolution in progress.
    I'll have more details and pics when things are further along. But Brian already has done a great job designing and fabricating a new tank.
    After many deliberations, we agreed the best option was just to make something so we get all the features we wanted to address and fix.

    Basic specs: </=10 gals, sumped, external 400lph pump, pre & post (pump) filters. Fuel level indication on stock gauge, and retain stock fuel filler tube.

    Should allow running minimal fuel at the track, easy maintenance for pump and filter maintenance/replacement. And enough flow to support 620hp (turbo).

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6000 using Tapatalk
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  17. #57
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Dr. Johny Dodge's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    I've had an idea for a factory fuel tank modded for two external pumps or the pump & filter in the same location

    fold a piece of same gauge sheet metal to match the tank into a square U shape I_I with the bottom of the U wide enough to mount the pump & filter

    now cut a notch, vertically in the back center of the tank the same width as the bottom of the U into the tank and go far enough in to make the pump fit in flush with the back side of the tank and some mount points for your filter and pump

    with the hole in the tank you can create your inner baffle easy enough as you can now get into the tank .. and your pick up tube

    I was thinking something like the sump that hangs down under a typical drag cars tank with the fittings at the back .. but

    built into the bottom of the tank so the original tank bottom gets no lower
    * there's a reason

    then instead of fittings at the bottom of the sump I add two curved tubes that run most of the way up to the top

    this is all contained to the U shaped piece used to mount the pump

    * there's a reason for both these little odd tweeks

    they keep the tank mod road legal
    the bottom gets no lower and fittings at the bottom of the tank are a huge no-no as there's not much you can do if they start leaking
    and fittings at the bottom of the tank are illegal .. at least here

    if you wanted to get really nutty you could cut the tank in half front to back and weld in a piece of sheet metal to divide it in two (or 1/3 and 2/3)
    one side for regular and one side for your race fuel - thus two pumps and a second fill hole

    with the pumps mounted vertically the flow would be from the bottom of the tube to the top of the tank and a 180 back down through the pump then another 180 and up through the filter and off along the bottom of the floor to the front of the car following the usual path

    or mount things horizontally and use 90*'s

    - this being a way to use the big nasty aeromotive pump I originally bought for a ford 460 stroker .. that didn't happen as I hadda move
    (silver one . 900hp ? , bought with my 64 cent dollar so I HAVE to use it)
    Last edited by Dr. Johny Dodge; 07-11-2019 at 03:02 AM.

  18. #58
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Yeah, this might have been done easier if the new tank I bought to cut up and make smaller would have actually taken to be welded on. The metal is very thin and might have some coating that made it very difficult to weld. So it was turning into a bigger pain than what it was worth.
    I'm confident Brian tried everything he could to try and get some good weld, but just wasn't working.

    In the end we will be better off and looking forward to sharing pics when complete.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6000 using Tapatalk
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  19. #59
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor 85lebaront2's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Let me throw a couple of things out here. First, if you use an external pump, the rear pickup position would be great for racing, but in street use could cause other issues in low fuel conditions. My reasoning for this is personal experience with my F350, truck came with an unbaffled front tank and the very low pressure centrifugal pumps for the "hot fuel handling package". At low fuel levels it would starve on uphill or downhill conditions due to the length of the tank. The rear tank, being roughly square didn't give as many problems.

    When I converted the truck to MAF/SEFI, the basic tanks are the same design, but with a pump module. These use the same setup you see in the newer pump module, a jet from the return fuel near the bottom to keep the reservoir in the pump module filled. This gives a quart or more fuel available during sloshing movements. It can still run out on you though. I can still get an "oops' it's dry" condition on lengthy uphill conditions (Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel) if I am below 1/4 tank.

    The other item, the K based cars, when EFI was added in 1983 and all the turbos, the pump sits in a plastic tub inside the tank, the return is in the fuel gauge unit and connects to a jet on the right side of the tub to push fuel into it. the only problem, if the engines fuel consumption is great enough to have little or no return, since there is no check valve I have ever seen in the tub, just a slightly above the base location where the fuel comes into the tub, you wouldn't have much reserve.

    Tank with internal cup or tub, for racing, if you added an external low pressure high volume pump such as a Carter or Holley or other brand that a race car with carburetors would use, drawing from the back of the tank and dumping into the cup or tub and only used when racing should allow you to run with lower fuel levels, reducing the weight. Just a thought.
    Last edited by 85lebaront2; 07-12-2019 at 08:32 AM.
    "growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional"
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  20. #60
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivan fuel issues (tank baffles/ jet pump/reservoir /94 style pump hanger walbr

    Thank you for those thoughts!
    Something to consider for sure.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6000 using Tapatalk
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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