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Thread: Development of the Turbo engines

  1. #1
    Authorized Vendor Turbo Mopar Vendor
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    Development of the Turbo engines


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    turbo addict
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    always nice to re-read this stuff. You always pick up somethimg

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    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Thanks! That's a good read. I haven't seen that one before.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
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    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    rife with errors, but nice.


    It is time, buckle up.

  5. #5
    Authorized Vendor Turbo Mopar Vendor
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Yeah the 2.2 being used on Hitler's jet ski during WWII was somewhat debatable but nobody is perfect!!!!

  6. #6
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by mopar-tech View Post
    rife with errors, but nice.

    Can you please point out some of the most-glaring errors? I'm asking out of sincere curiosity, not being hateful.


    Thanks!
    Dave

  7. #7
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor mopar-tech's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    1) All Chrysler turbocharged engines had multiple-port fuel injection in the US, making them, for some time, the only Chrysler engines to hold that honor.

    False, see FFV 2.5. Chrysler also made non turbo PFI engines in Mexico.

    2) Turbo II — a more powerful version using a charge air cooler (usually but incorrectly called an intercooler), producing around 174 hp (starting in 1988, these had black manifolds).

    False, 1987 (Shelby Daytona)

    3) Turbo III — the rare semi-experimental engine with dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, and returnless fuel injection, producing an absurd 224 horsepower

    Rare semi-experimental? It had been development since 1982 and was produced for 3 years. They made more Spirit R/T's than VNT CS Shadows or Daytona's.

    4) Two other setups, even less well-known and rarer, were used in the Cosworth-head M4S and in the TC by Maserati.

    The Cosworth head was NOT a production head. If you are going to bring that up there is at least 2 other designs you should mention as well.

    5) The first production Chrysler turbocharged engine was a 2.2 liter four-cylinder, launched in 1984, and generation 142 hp at 5,600 rpm and 160 lb-ft of torque at 3,200 rpm — around 30 hp and 30 lb-ft more than the best power made by any other 2.2, and competing with the bigger 3-liter Mitsubishi V6 in power — while turning in superior fuel economy.

    The 3.0 mitsu did not debut till 1987 1/2, the 2.2 turbo proceeded it by several years. There was no competition as the V6 was not an option yet.

    6) To make the engine, Chrysler dropped the compression ratio to 8.5:1 by using deep-dished, strutless, lightweight pistons. For durability, they strengthened the valves and springs, and used better-sealing rings, a special cam, select-fit bearings, and special exhaust manifold; a diecast aluminum cylinder head cover was added, mainly for looks. One key change was switching from a single throttle body injectors to four individual fuel injectors.

    The bearings were not "select fit" and the valve cover was NOT for looks but noise suppression and oil control.

    7) We ran Fast Burn heads on the 2.5L and the big advantage was that with the Fast Burn head, wide open throttle spark timing was lower than with the standard head, so you didn’t have to worry about spark knock too much and you didn’t need premium fuel. That made a big difference for the turbocharged engine.”

    Premium fuel was ALWAYS specified, decal was on fuel door or quarter panel with Shelby Chargers.

    8) Boost calibration changes in 1991 added 2 horsepower and a full 30 lb-ft of torque, so the motor produced 152 horsepower and 211 lb-ft of torque at the same speeds. A different control setup gave it faster reactions, as well.

    Manual transaxles only (high torque packages) auto was not rated for the torque.

    9) One Chrysler engineer wrote: “Incredible engine. Heads cracked in the 1991 version because some dummy decided to use cast iron plugs in the water jacket holes instead of aluminum.”

    Heads cracked since the castings from Lotus were incredibly bad and porous. Chrysler identified this issue as far back as 1987 in an engineering report I have.

    10) The timing belt tension had to be set so high to overcome “tow roping” of the timing belt, i.e. the timing belt going into negative tension. Tow roping is a belt killer. This problem was caused by the extremely low valvetrain friction from using roller rockers, combined with the DOHC setup.

    No, the belt tension was high since Lotus spec'd out the valve springs for some ridiculous spring rate for an rpm that the motor would never, ever see in its lifetime. There is offset retainers available to reduce the pressure and help prolong the belt and cam life.


    It is time, buckle up.

  8. #8
    Authorized Vendor Turbo Mopar Vendor
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    I have noticed tons of spelling errors in Allpar articles as if nobody there has spell check. They do have some good stuff there.
    Even if you have to take it with a grain of salt or maybe a bucket full.....

  9. #9
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Thank you for the additional information.

    Dave

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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    wow, talk about the creator being forgotten (Me, Stuart Davis). I was even the interface to the Chrysler-Shelby Development Center for years. I developed it, they stuck Shelby's name on it to market it.

    Dick Winkles and Mark Rozmen DID NOT develop the Turbo II. An engineer named Jim Prestel started the design of the tuned intake manifold and it was my assignment to "run with it" (Stuart Davis). I have up with the split manifold for servicing the injectors and the nearly "ideal entries" where they mated. ALL the early development was done with a dyno technician, Don Bloom. Later on Mark helped me map out the ultra cold charge air characteristics by pumping a gylcol/dry ice mixture thru the fins of the charge air cooler, as I stood next to the engine stirring the "slush". Dick and Mark had nothing to do with the manifold /intercooler/vehicle integration or calibration. I did all the performance cal, and Gregg Weber at the Proving Grounds did the drive/emissions cal.

    The first charge air cooler core was custom made for me by a Sr. Engineer at Blackstone corporation (Larry Barrons). All we had to chose from was the 2" thick Garrett Air-research core from a diesel, that was too restrictive, and it did not provide enough charge air cooling. So Larry and I came up with the first 3" thick core (that went into production). I actually made the sand molds that cast the charge air cooler tanks in the casting lab at the old Highland Park facility. A skilled welder named Joe Trybus welded them on for me. We ran it in a dyno cell (10 I believe).

    All I can say is "WOW, did the author get the facts wrong.

    A mechanic named Herb Norton put the FIRST turbo II car together for me. It was a K-Car rear end with a Daytona Front end. Here it is in 1985 : http://www.team1.org/first%20Chrysler%20turbo%20II.jpg




  11. #11
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Stuart, thanks for the clarification, if you have old pics and stuff you want to share/post that would be awesome!
    86 GLH-S #315

  12. #12
    We Todd D dot D Turbo Mopar Staff sdac guy's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Welcome to Turbo-Mopar.com Stu. Its good to see you are alive and kicking!


    Barry
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    For your questions about SDAC, please contact BadAssPerformance


  13. #13
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartshomepc View Post
    wow, talk about the creator being forgotten (Me, Stuart Davis). I was even the interface to the Chrysler-Shelby Development Center for years. I developed it, they stuck Shelby's name on it to market it.

    Dick Winkles and Mark Rozmen DID NOT develop the Turbo II. An engineer named Jim Prestel started the design of the tuned intake manifold and it was my assignment to "run with it" (Stuart Davis). I have up with the split manifold for servicing the injectors and the nearly "ideal entries" where they mated. ALL the early development was done with a dyno technician, Don Bloom. Later on Mark helped me map out the ultra cold charge air characteristics by pumping a gylcol/dry ice mixture thru the fins of the charge air cooler, as I stood next to the engine stirring the "slush". Dick and Mark had nothing to do with the manifold /intercooler/vehicle integration or calibration. I did all the performance cal, and Gregg Weber at the Proving Grounds did the drive/emissions cal.

    The first charge air cooler core was custom made for me by a Sr. Engineer at Blackstone corporation (Larry Barrons). All we had to chose from was the 2" thick Garrett Air-research core from a diesel, that was too restrictive, and it did not provide enough charge air cooling. So Larry and I came up with the first 3" thick core (that went into production). I actually made the sand molds that cast the charge air cooler tanks in the casting lab at the old Highland Park facility. A skilled welder named Joe Trybus welded them on for me. We ran it in a dyno cell (10 I believe).

    All I can say is "WOW, did the author get the facts wrong.

    A mechanic named Herb Norton put the FIRST turbo II car together for me. It was a K-Car rear end with a Daytona Front end. Here it is in 1985 : http://www.team1.org/first%20Chrysler%20turbo%20II.jpg



    Thanks for the information. That picture is cool. Quick story: I had a 2 door Reliant that was that color that was rear-ended in Sept., 1983. I used the insurance money to buy my 84 Daytona Turbo which was the first one the dealership sold. I loved my Reliant but is lives on in my Daytona. My Daytona needs a lot of work but someday...... Cool picture!

  14. #14
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Awesome! I love history.

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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by sdac guy View Post
    Welcome to Turbo-Mopar.com Stu. Its good to see you are alive and kicking!


    Barry
    Yep, I'm kinda back. While my (ex) wife had me sell my 1985 Gunmetal Blue Turbo Z, with one of my best engines and calibrations in it. The wife said we needed a mini van, and the Daytona and 1977 Corvette had to go. (still have the 'vette, not the wife!). As luck wold have it a 1985 Turbo Z (clean from California) showed up on my door step. So I'm trying to figure out to leave it stock, or "do my thing" to it and re-make my Turbo II car again. I saved the very first Turbo II manifold we made. It's been in my garage attic since about 1984.

    May need to call in a few "favors" from old friends to chase down some parts.
    Last edited by stuartshomepc; 03-22-2017 at 07:24 PM.

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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by Wastelands Warrior View Post
    Awesome! I love history.
    sure would have been nice if the "ALLpar" history was even close!" I worked for years on that program. It was "my baby".

    Added 3-19-17, I made contact with AllPar (Dave) and he double checked the facts and yep, what is written is not correct. He said he is busy with a big story but will re-write the section on T II when he can. At least he put a slight patch in the article that is on line. Still not right, but I appreciate him taking swift action.
    Last edited by stuartshomepc; 03-19-2017 at 07:29 PM.

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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Being a "newbie" I guess I can't post pictures yet. But here was the "first" "turbo II" intake manifold Jim Prestel and I designed, and Joe Trybus fabricated it. It actually had 3 tuning peaks as I shuck a Helmholtz resonating chamber in front of the throttle body
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...21Wb3JKMlI0WE0
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...VdKOGYtSG9uRWs

    And here was Chrysler's first All Wheel Drive, 4 valve per cylinder car (in my driveway in 1984). Some though we didn't work on 4 valve engines until the 1990's, like the AllPar article states. Not only was it a 4 valve, but all wheel drive too! way back in 1984 https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...nd3UnVqS0tHaGc

    and my promotion paperwork the went to a review board that shows what I did (for any doubters) CLEARLY states that I not only did the Turbo II but also installed and calibrated the first 2.5L turbo https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3G4LxfQg6LQeDEzeFBGRWVGWWM
    Last edited by stuartshomepc; 03-22-2017 at 07:29 PM.

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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartshomepc View Post
    sure would have been nice if the "ALLpar" history was even close!" I worked for years on that program. It was "my baby".
    It's nice to hear from the man who created the history.

  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Quote Originally Posted by stuartshomepc View Post

    And here was Chrysler's first All Wheel Drive, 4 valve per cylinder car (in my driveway in 1984). Some though we didn't work on 4 valve engines until the 1990's, like the AllPar article states. Not only was it a 4 valve, but all wheel drive too! way back in 1984 https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...nd3UnVqS0tHaGc
    Must know more! Like, why did they never actually put the awd into production?

    Rob M.
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    2.5 TIII swap is here!

    Project LookOwt
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    Back to basics, then the mods go back on....

  20. #20
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Development of the Turbo engines

    Stuart, welcome to T-M!!

    Hopefully you'll be able to keep sharing your Chrysler 2.2/2.5 Turbo experiences with us.

    We love the cars, the Engines, the Turbos and the history.

    As mentioned Allpar is "rife with errors" as much of whats there are stories gathered from here and there.

    The good thing is they are receptive to corrections and recently had a find the "Allpar biggest blunder contest"

    Unfortunately its extremely politically correct but I still visit there regularly and contribute occasionally.

    I guess you could call me a loyalist as I bought my Omni Turbo Feb, 22, 1986 and its still in my garage.

    Back in 1997, before I knew about the internet, I bought the entire M.P. Super 60 deal for my car.

    That was a very expensive learning curve but still worth it.

    Looking forward to more of your posts!!

    Thanks
    Randy


    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

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