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Thread: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

  1. #21
    ...if you know what I mean... Turbo Mopar Contributor csxtra's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Mike, let me know what you come up with for this...I have thought of this for a while, but have never had the time to look into it deeper.
    Warren Hall
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  2. #22
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Ok, in the interest of keeping some information together, here's some update.
    Some info can also be referenced here in a splinter thread:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=81556

    I've further worked over the Kinugawa actuator so that it could hold pressure on the spring side.
    This was accomplished with a trimmed down compression type fitting that the ferrul was replaced with an oring, this creates a shaft seal. A teflon oring seals the other threads.
    Attachment 60598
    I also had to enlarge the center hole in the kinugawa bracket for the packing gland to pass through.
    Attachment 60599
    Attachment 60600

    I reassembled with the 0.8 bar spring, which had got me about 9psi on my minimum boost setting.

    For the spring side port, i used a gvalve in a similar way you would for MAP bleed/cutout raiser. It bleeds some of the air signal off to limit the pressure in the signal line. I bench set for 6psi.

    After everything was back together, i did a test drive without the air being supplied to the spring side. Both on minimum boost, then on high boost.
    Then, i connected the airline for the spring side port (limited pressure signal). I only performed a low boost test.

    Here are the logs:
    2017_04_17-17_10_30_cond2.zip

    Although the test was successful, i think i'll need to use an electronic boost controller in order to keep my boost stable.
    Giving a set pressure to the spring side helps keep the boost from pushing thd wastegate open, but at higher boost levels, more spring side pressure is going to be needed. I think electronic control with quick cycling solenoids is going to be required.
    I'll need to read up on Harry's controller, and on the Turbosmart eboost which does control for twin port actuators.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
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  3. #23
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Seems like a successful test, Wayne.

    Check out
    https://www.nlrsystems.com/store/cat...st-controllers
    Their stuff is what many of the big boys use and some of us in the community have had good luck with them too. I am going to be using the AMS-500 V1 because I had access to a NIB one from my brother. It's pretty basic with 2 stages and and adjustable rate of gain between the two. You can use it with manifold air or an outside pressure source.
    Last edited by contraption22; 04-18-2017 at 04:13 PM.
    Mike Marra
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  4. #24
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Seems like a successful test, Wayne.

    Check out
    https://www.nlrsystems.com/store/cat...st-controllers
    Yikes, they are a bit pricey, aren't they. I'm going to have to find something hopefully cheaper but effective.
    Although I'd like, I don't think I'd get very good control with a pressure switch and a 3-way solenoid. The pressure switches i have are around 3psi deadband reset.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
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  5. #25
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Yikes, they are a bit pricey, aren't they. I'm going to have to find something hopefully cheaper but effective.
    Although I'd like, I don't think I'd get very good control with a pressure switch and a 3-way solenoid. The pressure switches i have are around 3psi deadband reset.
    Mine is the least expensive of what they offer, but it is also very easy to set and uses dual solenoids for precise control. You can find them used.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  7. #27
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Mine is the least expensive of what they offer, but it is also very easy to set and uses dual solenoids for precise control. You can find them used.
    In keeping with the "least expensive" approach, i'm going to test this controller below when i have some time.
    I do not have a pressure source barb anywhere in my plumbing until after the throttle body. I wish i had one on my compressor housing, but i don't.
    I could try to add one to before the TB by drilling through the bov flange if i need to. But if the turbo ever comes off, I'll get the blank bung machined for a hose barb.
    So, for now I'm going to have to use my intake manifold as the pressure source.

    With the twin port actuator, i would like to have things fail as safe as possible. But trying to use a pressure switch to control the solenoid was a bit of a brain tease.
    The best i came up with is this:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1492910884065.jpg 
Views:	585 
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ID:	60618

    My (high boost) dash toggle switch will power the 3way solenoid to send boost to the spring side of the wastegate actuator. The top side of the actuator will get a boost signal off the intake without going through a solenoid.
    The pressure switch will interrupt the power to the solenoid, thereby venting the spring side port of the actuator (and causing the wastegate arm to open the gate), intake pressure (boost) drops, resets the pressure switch at <1psi drop, and solenoid gets power again to pressurize the spring side again.

    If power is lost at the toggle, the solenoid fails safe to vent the spring side of the actuator defaulting to minimum boost (as set by the spring tension).

    Potential issues are, too erratic of boost swings, even though the pressure switch resets at about a 1psi drop below the setting. When the solenoid vents, it may bleed the pressure too fast. May need to add a valve to slow the venting.
    If the wiring anywhere breaks, power gets interrupted to the solenoid and the boost goes to minimum.
    If the pressure switch fails to switch, boost would increase to some unkown maximum until the operator switches off the toggle, or lifts off the accelerator.

    When i have time to test under boost, my pressure switch is already set for about 14psi. My minimum boost was about 8 with no pressure to the spring side of the wastegate actuator.
    If it looks decent, i can move the pressure switch setting up to around 20psi and see if everything looks good.

    I'll save everyone from seeing a current engine bay pic with the spaghetti tubing for the test mock up. If everything works well enough, i'll clean up some of the plumbing.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
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  8. #28
    turbo addict
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    My HdI boost controller has a LOW and HIGH boost setup. I press one button, and I am in high boost setting from low boost. Easy, fast, and simple.




    This guy loves the Hdi boost controller too.
    http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/8332...-hdi-sbc-d-se/

  9. #29
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    My HdI boost controller has a LOW and HIGH boost setup. I press one button, and I am in high boost setting from low boost. Easy, fast, and simple.




    This guy loves the Hdi boost controller too.
    http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/8332...-hdi-sbc-d-se/
    I've got one saved in ebay, and was ready to purchase.
    So far, no one has been able to tell me if the controller can work in this type of configuration, twin port wastegate actuator and "venting off" pressure to maintain boost. Most systems are configured to duty cycle the solenoid to modulate pressure to the the top of the actuator.

    I need a controller that will work as setup similar to this, described as twin port actuator for systems with high backpressure:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1492927506109.jpg 
Views:	2988 
Size:	63.2 KB 
ID:	60619
    (Just keep in mind the external wastegate pictured has the spring on the top side.)
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
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  10. #30
    Super Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff contraption22's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I've got one saved in ebay, and was ready to purchase.
    So far, no one has been able to tell me if the controller can work in this type of configuration, twin port wastegate actuator and "venting off" pressure to maintain boost. Most systems are configured to duty cycle the solenoid to modulate pressure to the the top of the actuator.

    I need a controller that will work as setup similar to this, described as twin port actuator for systems with high backpressure:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1492927506109.jpg 
Views:	2988 
Size:	63.2 KB 
ID:	60619
    (Just keep in mind the external wastegate pictured has the spring on the top side.)

    Theoretically, woudn't any boost controller work the way you want it? It would just be a matter of getting the plumbing of a three port solenoid correct.

    With a single port actuator, you want the solenoid activation at the boost target to send send pressure to the wastegate.

    With a dual port wastegate, you want the solenoid activation at the boost target to exhaust pressure on the spring side of the wastegate.
    Mike Marra
    1986 Plymouth Horizon GLMF "The Contraption" < entertaining sponsorship offers
    Project Log:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?69708-The-Contraption-2013-14&highlight=

  11. #31
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I've got one saved in ebay, and was ready to purchase.
    So far, no one has been able to tell me if the controller can work in this type of configuration, twin port wastegate actuator and "venting off" pressure to maintain boost. Most systems are configured to duty cycle the solenoid to modulate pressure to the the top of the actuator.

    I need a controller that will work as setup similar to this, described as twin port actuator for systems with high backpressure:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1492927506109.jpg 
Views:	2988 
Size:	63.2 KB 
ID:	60619
    (Just keep in mind the external wastegate pictured has the spring on the top side.)

    Did you read Hdi's manual?

    http://www2.hybrid-power.com/install...20SBC-D-SE.pdf

  12. #32
    turbo addict Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Hdi seems to have huge parasitic draw from its memory function.
    Seems cheaper to try ebay external welded flange off turbine housing or use divided flange on the downpipe.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  13. #33
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by contraption22 View Post
    Theoretically, woudn't any boost controller work the way you want it? It would just be a matter of getting the plumbing of a three port solenoid correct.

    With a single port actuator, you want the solenoid activation at the boost target to send send pressure to the wastegate.

    With a dual port wastegate, you want the solenoid activation at the boost target to exhaust pressure on the spring side of the wastegate.
    I'll admit my brain does not work as well as it once did. But even though the ports may be hooked up difference, the solenoid action is reversed.
    Single port more open pulses increases boost.
    Dual port more open pulses decreases boost.
    I would think there'd be a selector dip switch to pick the control action method, direct acting, or reverse acting.

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Yes i did.
    The manual looks the same as the other i downloaded.
    I don't see what the difference is between the SBC-D, and the SBC-D-SE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Hdi seems to have huge parasitic draw from its memory function.
    Seems cheaper to try ebay external welded flange off turbine housing or use divided flange on the downpipe.
    Thats not going to be possible without major rework of my setup.

    Can you explain more of the memory function issue?
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
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  14. #34
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Was able to initial test before work.
    The pressure fluctuates a bit, as expected. But i will test at a bit higher boost, and also with restricting the solenoid vent to see if the control can be better.
    Also i may try relocating the pressure switch to get a cleaner signal.

    Log of testing:
    2017_04_23-15_40_44_cond1.pdf
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  15. #35
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    My HdI boost controller has a LOW and HIGH boost setup. I press one button, and I am in high boost setting from low boost. Easy, fast, and simple.




    This guy loves the Hdi boost controller too.
    http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/8332...-hdi-sbc-d-se/
    Harry, you'll be happy to know I have an HDi EBC-D-SE on the way from ebay for $117.
    I hope it doesn't take too long to clear customs.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  16. #36
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Why is it anytime i am in a time crunch for a part, i find a sh1tbag seller on ebay?
    Ordered a high pressure, large diaphragm Garrett actuator 15psi, but what they sent was a small can actuator. Should have been PN 430099-0034
    http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...722281&alt=web

    On the left is the old Garrett actuator (6psi )
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1494040368293.jpg 
Views:	285 
Size:	71.4 KB 
ID:	60686

    I should get a refund easy enough, but he says he doesn't have the item that he listed. So i still need to find my part! Will reserve the right to call him a douche later, after he replies to my response.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
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  17. #37
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    New HDi SBC-D-SE installed, along with Garrett 430099-034 actuator.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1496736112989.jpg 
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ID:	60917

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1496736187711.jpg 
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ID:	60918

    Boost issues are now in the past!
    And the large diaphragm actuator still allows for a low, low setting.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  18. #38
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Boost issues are now in the past!
    And the large diaphragm actuator still allows for a low, low setting.
    Glad you finally listened!!

    I will never go back to a manual boost controller.

  19. #39
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Is anyone using a dual port wastegate actuator (internal w.g.) with a MBC?

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
    Glad you finally listened!!

    I will never go back to a manual boost controller.
    Hey, i was "listening", i just wasn't acting yet!
    I would really prefer to have the mbc, but I did want to try this out. And you were right, it does work pretty well.

    Of course, the caviat is you have to have a proper working wastegate actuator to start with.
    Don't forget my real issue was the original actuator was only good up to about 25psi. The new actuator has more than twice the spring pressure.
    I think my mbc would work fine again with this actuator, but would have to back it way down. And, believe it or not, the HDi allowed for a lower "low boost" setting than sending a straight manifold signal to the actuator.
    (Because with the MBC i needed to have a small orifice to bleed down the actuator when using the gvalve, since it also is a check valve.)

    So, I think the HDi was worth the $117 i paid on ebay.

    I do think however, some of the folks here could make a better version of one. The only thing i would change would be to actually see what your setting boost goal is. One with a small display showing your target boost.
    But i wasn't going to step up to a Turbosmart eBoost or StreetBoost for that. $500 for a boost controller would have Gus shaking his head at me...
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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