How much hp is a slightly ported 1pc intake good for

[Prestige.racing]

Me and my brother are arguing about how junk the stock 1pc intake is any input on this is good thanks

[mopar-tech]

I ran 11's with one, not as bad as people state. Going to a heavily modified 2-piece after on the Reliant netted me very little.

[2.216VTurbo]

I've never doubted anything that guy says Prestige because he backs up his experience and tests with timeslips. I only have one modified vehicle with a one piece and my testing is not back to back because I also changed turbo's ( a little larger compressor wheel, stock hot side) and went to a ported head when I changed out to a modified one piece. It is just so small and choked down it's hard to believe it's not restricting flow. But again^ that guy tested it so...

[glhs875]

What is the area of the neck on a 1 piece
vs. a 52mm TB?

[GLHNSLHT2]

it's smaller than the stock 46mm TB

[Reaper1]

It's not that there aren't gains to be made. It's not that the design doesn't suck (it does...horribly). It's that in order to take full advantage of something "better" takes more than a slightly larger turbo and a canned tune.

I'm not saying Gary did anything wrong and I am not putting his work and contributions down. He has accomplished FAR more than I have and has WAY more experience.

I will also say that there are some parameters that a lot of people DON"T pay attention to that dictate whether a design is crappy or not. I know Gary at least read his plugs all the time, so he can speak to possible flow discrepancy between the cylinders, but that is also affected by the exhaust side.

I think the best answer to this is: It depends!

[83scamp]

It's not that there aren't gains to be made. It's not that the design doesn't suck (it does...horribly). It's that in order to take full advantage of something "better" takes more than a slightly larger turbo and a canned tune.

I'm not saying Gary did anything wrong and I am not putting his work and contributions down. He has accomplished FAR more than I have and has WAY more experience.

I will also say that there are some parameters that a lot of people DON"T pay attention to that dictate whether a design is crappy or not. I know Gary at least read his plugs all the time, so he can speak to possible flow discrepancy between the cylinders, but that is also affected by the exhaust side.

I think the best answer to this is: It depends!

i think you've kind hit this one on the head. I am certainly no expert either and will defer specifics to Gary, but I was just having a conversation with a friend this weekend about TM's that definitely applies here. He was telling about how years ago, at an SDAC convention(can't remember which one he said), one of the Chrysler engineers was there doing a tech talk telling about all the time & effort that went into building a balanced system for the TII. Thousands of engineering hours were spent making the entire system work together. In fact, that particular engineer created a TII combo that made an honest 300 hp, and still ran stock inlet piping & a stock exhaust. Changing the system needs to be done in a specific way so the balance isn't upset.

I say all that to make this point: yes, the one piece may not be the "ideal" intake, but until other parts of the system are changed to make it the restriction, it works well as designed. What that point is, I can't tell you. But Gary is living proof that it can still work in an 11 second car...

[mopar-tech]

I say all that to make this point: yes, the one piece may not be the "ideal" intake, but until other parts of the system are changed to make it the restriction, it works well as designed. What that point is, I can't tell you. But Gary is living proof that it can still work in an 11 second car...

Don't disagree about the one piece- it looks like it could be restrictive compared to the 2 piece but certainly got the job done on the Reliant and that was before the car got lightened.

[Reaper1]

I think you are talking about Ken (5Digits). I know that he had made mention of the fact that the part that was SUPPOSED to replace the '86/'87 2-piece intake was actually BETTER, but that the engineer got sick or something and while he was out, the "executive decision" was made to use what we have now. I could swear he even had pictures, or someone did. I have never seen them and what I posted above is all I really know. Hopefully someone can expand on it.

[OmniLuvr]

yes, the one piece may not be the "ideal" intake, but until other parts of the system are changed to make it the restriction, it works well as designed

I agree with this^

if your running a stock head (swirl) and stock cam, then the intake prob wont be the cork in the system. you can "make" anything work if you throw enough boost at it though.

im pretty impressed with tryingbe's numbers, with a custom intake slightly ported head and stock cam, 300hp @ 20 psi isn't shabby, im pretty sure an all stock (with 1 piece intake) 2.2 turned up to 20 psi only makes about 200"ish" hp, so how much of his power was gained from a ported head and how much was gained from the intake? how much different will his numbers be when a cam is added?

the neck is also only 1 part of the restriction on a 1 piece, the runners behind the inj are necked down pretty small, the way the air is fed to the siamesed runners at the very top of the intake plenum is also a little strange.

the 2 piece although better, still has a lot to be desired, the runners do flow "well/better" but they are still pretty long for a 2.2/2.5 engine, the plenum is pretty much garbage too, and the angle of entry from plenum to the runner could be better too...

"How much hp is a slightly ported 1pc intake good for"

how much psi can your engine/tune/turbo handle? you can keep adding boost and making power but the hp per psi gain will be small...

[Prestige.racing]

I agree with this^

if your running a stock head (swirl) and stock cam, then the intake prob wont be the cork in the system. you can "make" anything work if you throw enough boost at it though.

im pretty impressed with tryingbe's numbers, with a custom intake slightly ported head and stock cam, 300hp @ 20 psi isn't shabby, im pretty sure an all stock (with 1 piece intake) 2.2 turned up to 20 psi only makes about 200"ish" hp, so how much of his power was gained from a ported head and how much was gained from the intake? how much different will his numbers be when a cam is added?

the neck is also only 1 part of the restriction on a 1 piece, the runners behind the inj are necked down pretty small, the way the air is fed to the siamesed runners at the very top of the intake plenum is also a little strange.

the 2 piece although better, still has a lot to be desired, the runners do flow "well/better" but they are still pretty long for a 2.2/2.5 engine, the plenum is pretty much garbage too, and the angle of entry from plenum to the runner could be better too...

The car has a t70 turbo with 60mm wastegate 1000cc injectors 2 Walbro 255 pumps fwdp stage 5tune swirl head with small port job 3bar map large fmic 3.5 inch exhaust fwdp stage 2 cam msd 6al box with 3step antilag

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with this^

if your running a stock head (swirl) and stock cam, then the intake prob wont be the cork in the system. you can "make" anything work if you throw enough boost at it though.

im pretty impressed with tryingbe's numbers, with a custom intake slightly ported head and stock cam, 300hp @ 20 psi isn't shabby, im pretty sure an all stock (with 1 piece intake) 2.2 turned up to 20 psi only makes about 200"ish" hp, so how much of his power was gained from a ported head and how much was gained from the intake? how much different will his numbers be when a cam is added?

the neck is also only 1 part of the restriction on a 1 piece, the runners behind the inj are necked down pretty small, the way the air is fed to the siamesed runners at the very top of the intake plenum is also a little strange.

the 2 piece although better, still has a lot to be desired, the runners do flow "well/better" but they are still pretty long for a 2.2/2.5 engine, the plenum is pretty much garbage too, and the angle of entry from plenum to the runner could be better too...

The car has a t70 turbo with 60mm wastegate 1000cc injectors 2 Walbro 255 pumps fwdp stage 5tune swirl head with small port job 3bar map large fmic 3.5 inch exhaust fwdp stage 2 cam msd 6al box with 3step antilag

- - - Updated - - -

And e85 I might throw a water/meth kit on it aswell

[Reaper1]

A T70 turbo and supporting fuel mods, supporting exhaust mods, but the head and intake are almost stock? To me (and this is only my opinion and I don't exactly know the parameters of the build, so the statement is going to be a little ignorant) this is backwards. Will it make power? Sure! How much and how easily...that's a different answer. I would get the head and the intake to match the rest of what you already have. Right now the system is totally mismatched and while it might work ok, it's certainly going to be "off" from what it *should* do.

Yes, a stock TII at 20#'s is right around 200-210whp.

[Vigo]

it's smaller than the stock 46mm TB

Which is still bigger than the compressor outlet, and all of your flow somehow makes it through.

After all this time questioning the conventional wisdom I'm actually fairly convinced now that the TB elbow is not the main problem with the 1pc.

It's that in order to take full advantage of something "better" takes more than a slightly larger turbo and a canned tune.

I think the main thing you have to do to take advantage of an intake with a larger plenum and runner CSA is rev higher. Even when Gary recently ran a stock-ish 87 CSX to 12.8 he was still shifting it at ~5200rpm. At that rpm i'm willing to believe there's little measurable performance difference between the 1pc and 2pc intakes.

But, remember back to the 1st posted dyno of one of Acannell's BMF intakes and even with a stock cam at stock cam timing it was still making PEAK power at 6700rpm when the pull was stopped: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...whp&highlight=

[OmniLuvr]

but the head and intake are almost stock

well, we aren't sure how "almost stock", its got some porting done to the head but how much (and what size valves)? also porting done to the intake, but how much can really be done without modification or some sort of welding????

he has also stated he has a stg2 cam, so that could help also, which makes me think his combo isn't that "mismatched"?

the "t70" may be a little big/laggy for his combo (losing some low end torq) but wont hold him back though so that's nice.

the intake and head will be holding him back the most, but at the same time should perform well enough, the question is, how well does he want it to perform?

He could make 300hp, but at a pretty high boost level, but the dual walbro/1000cc inj/e85 should cover him to that, and at least too 400 (but I think fuel line diameter will also come into play with fuel flow needed for e85)

But, remember back to the 1st posted dyno of one of Acannell's BMF intake's and even with a stock cam at stock timing it was still making PEAK power at 6700rpm when the pull was stopped

bet a cam would have made that a lot better situation!

[Reaper1]

well, we aren't sure how "almost stock", its got some porting done to the head but how much (and what size valves)? also porting done to the intake, but how much can really be done without modification or some sort of welding????

he has also stated he has a stg2 cam, so that could help also, which makes me think his combo isn't that "mismatched"?

the "t70" may be a little big/laggy for his combo (losing some low end torq) but wont hold him back though so that's nice.

the intake and head will be holding him back the most, but at the same time should perform well enough, the question is, how well does he want it to perform?

He could make 300hp, but at a pretty high boost level, but the dual walbro/1000cc inj/e85 should cover him to that, and at least too 400 (but I think fuel line diameter will also come into play with fuel flow needed for e85)



bet a cam would have made that a lot better situation!

For the head the OP states " swirl head with small port job". To me...that *might* mean +1mm valves, but probably just a valve job and some core flash removal and maybe some port matching or bowl clean up. Nothing that is going to net 200cfm on the intake side for sure.

He's asking about the intake, so I think we can safely say that it is mostly stock and hasn't been cut open to do "real" work to it.

The Stg2 cam isn't that much of an improvement over stock. While it is "better" as far as specs are concerned, I don't' know of anyone that has posted results to say for sure either way. I *do* know that large cams in stock heads *can* work...but you have to spin the living snot out of the engine to make it work.

An old school T70 is a BIG and HEAVY turbo. I remember that's what Supra's used to run quite often back in the day. Even those were laggy on/off switches. Remember, the T70 is a T4 frame turbo IIRC. I would not be surprised if this combo netted a spool rpm around 4000. As much as I don't like N2O, I think that would be the way to get this thing going.

Everything else...I agree.

[Shadow]

It never ceases to amaze me at how Hard it is to get the Simple stuff across! lol

When I first came on to the net back in what, 2004? (yeh, real late comer) My #1 reason was to try to dispel the mass amount of Miss information floating around regarding the 8v platform. All these years later and as much as many things Have changed for the better, many have not........

I can't believe after all this time, some ppl still believe the one piece TB neck drops down to less than a stock 46mm TB. Really!? Has it never occurred to anyone to actually Measure the restriction to be Certain? This was one of the first things we (my bro and I) did back in the day, and it is Def Not smaller than a 46mm TB!

The intake Q is as simple as the cam Q. How Important is it to you to make More power on Less boost? We made well over 300WHP very easily on the stock one piece with stock 46mm TB over 15 years ago and that was as much power as the owner of the car wanted. So no reason to change the intake.........

If all your looking for is 300WHP, maybe even 350WHP tops, and your not concerned about running a few extra lbs of boost to do it, no reason to debate intakes.

If, on the other hand, you're looking at 400WHP or more, then the BMF or very well ported 2 piece is what you're looking for, as even a very well ported 2 piece becomes a restriction worth addressing @ 450WHP+

Of course, all this is moot IF you don't have All your ducks in a row, and most Still don't.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I can't believe after all this time, some ppl still believe the one piece TB neck drops down to less than a stock 46mm TB. Really!? Has it never occurred to anyone to actually Measure the restriction to be Certain? This was one of the first things we (my bro and I) did back in the day, and it is Def Not smaller than a 46mm TB!

I don't remember where I heard that. I thought it was from a reputable source. I'm sorry. So what's the area of the neck?

[Shadow]

I hate for old topics to be downed with comments to the effect that (ALL) has been covered or the topic shouldn't be brought up again etc. Well maybe someone may have missed something in the past or maybe someone new is reading a topic for the first time or maybe some valuable information was not
discussed in the first pace! I always try my best to keep an open mind on all things! Just saying!

You are Right, I could have been a little more cooth in the way I posted that. My Bad!

Possibly the effect of entering a conversation too late to gain a smooth entry?

To me this is the Simple stuff, and after all these years I would have thought there would be oodles of data, pointing to 1 piece up to around X HP, 2 piece to X + HP, well ported 2 piece to X ++ HP, ect ect. (+ respective powerband (RPM) changes)

So the Q seemed simple enough to me, but I'm one to resolve a problem and move on. Having "moved on" I want to think about the Next problem. (maybe that's it, maybe I'm just in the Wrong conversation?)

I don't remember where I heard that. I thought it was from a reputable source. I'm sorry. So what's the area of the neck?

Cool of you to respond in such a way after I (believe it or not, not purposely) singled you out!

Remember, I Don't consider the individual in situations like this, I just attack the skewed info. My Bad again!

But Thank you for being Honest enough to state the Facts. That it was third party info that you were just passing on. This IS the greatest problem with the internet and carrying on conversations where the Truth never reveals itself. More times then not, the "Untruth" gets passed along and no one remembers how it got started.

IMS it was Gus who said the 1 piece necks down smaller than the .........52mm TB

If I'm remembering this correctly, he put the 52mm TB on the Acclaim and lost gas mileage while gaining No performance. So he looked into things a little further and found the restriction in the TB elbow of the 1 piece.

When we cut open a 1 piece and measured it all those years ago, I believe what we found was to the same effect. It was so long ago and I put it behind me so quickly that I'm not even sure How close it was to the 52mm TB? (For some reason I thought it wasn't as bad as I was expecting to find)

I have a dozen or more 1 piece intakes laying around and out of curiosity, I think I will cut one open and dble check

[OmniLuvr]

For the head the OP states " swirl head with small port job". To me...that *might* mean +1mm valves, but probably just a valve job and some core flash removal and maybe some port matching or bowl clean up. Nothing that is going to net 200cfm on the intake side for sure.

He's asking about the intake, so I think we can safely say that it is mostly stock and hasn't been cut open to do "real" work to it.

The Stg2 cam isn't that much of an improvement over stock. While it is "better" as far as specs are concerned, I don't' know of anyone that has posted results to say for sure either way. I *do* know that large cams in stock heads *can* work...but you have to spin the living snot out of the engine to make it work.

An old school T70 is a BIG and HEAVY turbo. I remember that's what Supra's used to run quite often back in the day. Even those were laggy on/off switches. Remember, the T70 is a T4 frame turbo IIRC. I would not be surprised if this combo netted a spool rpm around 4000. As much as I don't like N2O, I think that would be the way to get this thing going.

um, that's basically exactly what I said, but I was making it more of a "question" statement, what don't or do you agree with?

We made well over 300WHP very easily on the stock one piece with stock 46mm TB over 15 years ago

so whats easily? how much "psi" did you have to run to get to that number and what was the other ingredients to the combo?

[Reaper1]

um, that's basically exactly what I said, but I was making it more of a "question" statement, what don't or do you agree with?

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were meaning. Sorry about that. Sounds like we are actually on the same page.