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Thread: E85 and water/meth kit

  1. #1
    Mitsu booster
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    E85 and water/meth kit

    I have a 93 shadow 2.5 with Fwdp stage 2 cam mild port job on head a ported l pc intake and ported exhaust manifold with a super t70 turbo and 60mm wg

    also has
    aem wideband
    fwdp stage 5ecu
    1000cc injectors
    Walbro 255
    big fmic
    58mm tb
    3.5 inch exhaust


    the car will be on E85 with as much boost as I can throw at it safely on stock rebuilt bottem end I'm hoping for somewhere around 25-30psi and I'm curious if I should run a water meth kit as well to keep down on knock as much as possible. I already have the kit so that's not a problem I'm just wondering if the water meth will be beneficial or negative. Since e85 is already "colder" then pump gas. I have also thought of adding methanol to the e85 to get the octane up, as well as have an even more cooling effect then straight e85.


    30psi might seem like a lot for stock bottem end but I'm not worried about the motor as long as I can get to 4 or 5 events I'll be happy the car is just a test car. I'm also building a hybrid powered glh that will be the real race car but wasn't going to be able to get it done this year and still wanted to race this year so I Threw some stuff I had on the shadow

  2. #2
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    You might have too many balls in the air, that is, it is difficult to reconcile the 85 with methanol injection with your tune. Too many factors to control
    Last edited by johnl; 05-01-2016 at 06:32 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

  3. #3
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Seems to me like you could tune it on e85 only, and when you start running into knock counts before hitting best torque you could start spraying meth. I don't see what is so complicated about that? I would leave the system off until you actually run into a reason to use it, though. If you start trying to spray meth without having a specific reason to, then yes you would be complicating your tuning needlessly.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  4. #4
    turbo addict
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    personally I think the meth/water injection "shouldn't" be necessary, e85 should be more than enough. the problem you might run into is the amount of fuel flow needed for the power level of 30 psi on e85, I think the 255 may run out of steam, and/or the fuel rail pressure might be too high for the pump to flow enough. your going to have to run the static fuel pressure at less than 43 psi to be able to run 30 psi of boost (43psi fuel + 30 psi boost = 73psi fuel rail pressure).

    also I would not run meth in the fuel tank itself, meth is very corrosive as compared to e85.

    I also think your 1 piece intake will be holding you back but that's another story... (unless its been cut/welded/ported)

    either way, sounds like fun! have you used e85 before? do you have a reliable station to purchase e85 from?

  5. #5
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Yea e85 is in like every speedway near me in Ohio

  6. #6
    boostaholic
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Will need more than a 255 pump to run E85 and 30+ psi , I added a 400 pump inline. Meth and E85 work great together, I run 68%, mostly because I still only have 53lb. Injectors ( over 5800ft. Altitude)

  7. #7
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Quote Originally Posted by MILKCARTON View Post
    Will need more than a 255 pump to run E85 and 30+ psi , I added a 400 pump inline. Meth and E85 work great together, I run 68%, mostly because I still only have 53lb. Injectors ( over 5800ft. Altitude)
    what if i was to run a piggy back setup i also have a inline 255 so i could run the in tank 255 then put the inline 255 closer to the fuel rail about midway of the car.

    The other thing is i built a 700hp saab on e85 on 28psi and he has had no trouble with the pump running out of steam. so whats the problem with the 2.5 as to where 28psi is to much does the stock rail not flow good enough or the stock regulator not up to it?

  8. #8
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    You can play around in google image search looking for 'fuel pump flow etc etc' and find a lot of interesing graphs: https://www.google.com/search?q=ams+...walbro&imgrc=_


    The thing about stock turbo dodge fuel systems is they have 55psi base pressure plus 1:1 regulator so with stock regulator you will have 85+ psi fuel pressure at 30psi boost. Look at those charts and the pattern is clear that single pumps hate high pressures, and some of them have internal bypass/leaks that effectively cap them at <75psi. What you will find though is that 2 pumps in series are able to maintain a good flow rate up to much higher pressures.

    I have 3 cars with 2 pumps in series. 2 of them have the 2nd pump mounted to the front of the spare tire well, and the third one has it ZIP TIED under the hood. I dont think placement matters as far as flow is concerned, but it can matter as far as voltage. If you mount your second pump at the rear, you either have to piggyback it off the stock pump wiring (bad idea) or run new wiring for it. If you mount it closer to the engine bay you reduce the amount of wiring you need to do. My pump that is ziptied under the hood has its power coming off the coil positive terminal and grounds straight to the firewall. It doesn't get any easier than that.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  9. #9
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    stock fuel rail psi is 55, so if you were to run 30 psi, you would be at 85 psi rail pressure. most single fuel pumps start becoming inefficient after 75 psi, so you could run them at a higher pressure but the pump may not be able to keep up with the needed flow.

    what pump, size inj, and static fuel rail pressure (no vac line hooked up to pressure regulator) were you running on saab?

    our heads and intake manifolds don't flow very well, so 30 psi may only get you to 300-350 hp depending on parts combination? especially with a 1 piece....

  10. #10
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    I just noticed that you listed a 60mm wastegate, how is it mounted and plumbed?

    damn, vigo got the hole shot!

    and are you running a swirl or g-head?

  11. #11
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    stock fuel rail psi is 55, so if you were to run 30 psi, you would be at 85 psi rail pressure. most single fuel pumps start becoming inefficient after 75 psi, so you could run them at a higher pressure but the pump may not be able to keep up with the needed flow.

    what pump, size inj, and static fuel rail pressure (no vac line hooked up to pressure regulator) were you running on saab?

    our heads and intake manifolds don't flow very well, so 30 psi may only get you to 300-350 hp depending on parts combination? especially with a 1 piece....

    well the Saab has a stock rail and stock regulator with 43psi but has a 255lph pump with 850cc injectors but the intake flows waaaay better then the 1pc intake I have on the shadow but that's a different story all together.

  12. #12
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    I just noticed that you listed a 60mm wastegate, how is it mounted and plumbed?

    damn, vigo got the hole shot!

    and are you running a swirl or g-head?
    ive made a screamer pipe that mounts to the factory manifold then the turbo is mounted to that in that pipe the wastegate is mounted I'll take some pics of the setup and upload them and I'm using the swirl head.

  13. #13
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: E85 and water/meth kit

    Good stuff

    Vigo you said it better than I did, get E85 tuned to its limit and then add meth injection
    Last edited by johnl; 04-29-2016 at 08:06 PM.
    John Laing

    "The sole condition which is required in order to succeed in centralizing the supreme power in a democratic community, is to love equality, or to get men to believe you love it. Thus the science of despotism, which was once so complex is simplified, and reduced . . . . to a single principle."
    -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    "One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary."
    --Ayn Rand

    "To evolve, you don't need a Constitution. All you need is a legislature and a ballot box . . . . things will evolve as much as you want. All of these changes can come about democratically; you don't need a Constitution to do that and it's not the function of a Constitution to do that."
    -- Justice Antonin Scalia

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