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Thread: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

  1. #81
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Looks interesting!
    Sound clip will be needed!
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  2. #82
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging




    running this little bugger myself
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wlk-17223

    same one i had on my old girl a decade ago.
    sounds really really good at full chat zipping through the gears.

    cut the factory down pipe 2 inches from the flange. swagged it out to 2-3/4. took a 3 inch pipe. swagged it down to 2-3/4 welded it to the factory down pipe flange.. had it mandrell bent down. no cat. this little muffler about midship. and it turns out to the passenger side right in front of the shackle.
    painted the down pipe with 2 cans of "ceramic" exhaust paint. then wrapped it with DEI wrap from the flange to the muffler.

  3. #83
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    There's one of those long Magnaflows on the Turbo Z I'm buying, it's fairly quiet and sounds stockish.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  4. #84
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Attachment 59839

    I'm being stupid, i guess. I'm back up to 15psi without watching knock counts. Planning to do that tonight. Only noticeable difference from the driver's seat seems to be slightly quicker spoolup. Once i get a passenger watching the scantool i'll see if i can go back up to 20psi, and if that works then i'll start advancing the base timing again.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  5. #85
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I've been dragging --- getting the van turned up on e85, but i did finally get started!

    On Tuesday morning, i was driving the van for the first time in a while going somewhere to drop off a couple tires and pick up a little scrap metal and happened to see an 8th gen Civic Si coupe roll up next to me with a couple of young guys guffawing and grinning like mad about the van (it's open downpipe and you can hear the turbo, plus it looks ridiculous). I gave them a little BOV but after a few more seconds of them staying alongside i decided to go ahead and run them since that seemed like what they were after. I kind of didn't want to because i didn't know what the boost level even was (hadnt floored it and looked since a few weeks back and the weather changed a lot) and whatever it was didn't feel very fast to me. The Civic was lowered so i knew it probably had some unknown mods and would probably spank me. Anyway, rolled on from 2nd and pulled out about a car length in front and held it until the beginning of 4th where i let out. They were just starting to creep back up on me. We pulled over and talked at a car wash and it turns out the Civic was stock aside from lowering, which explains how i sort of beat it. My boost level happened to be 10psi, so i was barely making over stock power. It did spike to 15 which is probably where i got that one car length! Anyway, the guys in the Civic LOVED the van and were super excited just to see it and know such a thing existed.


    Attachment 59967

    Later that day i finally had some help to watch the scan tool so i started upping the boost again. It turns out that between switching from 2.5" downpipe w/cutout to a 3" open downpipe, and switching to e85, the mitsu now spikes much worse than it did before. When i was turning up the 1st stg boost controller i was spiking to 17psi, settling to 12, and because of the spike i was picking up minor knock sensor activity (< 3* retard on only one cylinder) in midrange 3-4k rpm. It went away at higher rpm. I'm not worried about it, but it's annoying that it spikes so much now. When i went to turn up the 2nd stg boost controlled (comes in at ~4200 rpm), i found that i couldn't get any consistent boost past 14psi. It would be somewhere between 14-16 most of the time. I think I saw it hold 17psi once. It made 20 psi before. The only difference is that i added a DSM bov. It's unmodified, and i remember reading about them being known to leak and there being a simple mod to make them hold better. I think i even did the mod to the one i used on my Aries, i just don't remember the details aside from drilling some hole. So I'm going to verify that it's leaking (didnt have my tester adapter thing with me that day) and probably mod the BOV if that ends up being the issue.


    Anyway, at 14-16psi i see no knock sensor activity other than a tiny amount during big boost spikes right in the midrange. Surprisingly, with the OBX and these sticky tires, it ALMOST hooks 1st gear on hot pavement (yes, Texas had hot pavement on Tuesday!) and dead hooks through 2nd. Before the OBX it would start spinning in 2nd around 12psi. Once i fix the boost issue, i'll crank the 2nd stg back to 20psi. Once i decide to do something about the boost spike, i'll start adding timing back in.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #86
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Here's what i did, but it may be more trouble than you need to do. I did this because i didn't have a port on the turbo outlet.

    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh....php?p=1108511

    But Gus' page still applies if you want to see how to mod one simply.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  7. #87
    boostaholic
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I'm sure those kids were only 1 out of a 10,000 that all know whats up when they see/hear you drive next to them in that thing tho. The one time some kids flagged me down and talked to me it was also a lowered honda btw.
    MinivanRider

  8. #88
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Expecting a package...

    Surprised you didn't steal your other BOV.
    I don't think the DSM BOV that I primarilly used and also tested leaked until around 17psi when doing a test. That was at high elevation.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  9. #89
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Well, I was digging around for something to plug the 'quick release port' on the bottom of the BOV and nothing was falling quickly to hand so i decided to take the lazy way out and do the 'crush mod' instead. I put it in my press and crushed it by about 1/4". I reinstalled it and pressure tested the whole system up to ~25 psi finding no real leaks other than the usual seepage around my EGR blockoff plate which has a gasket made of folded up tinfoil (seriously). Unfortunately this didn't improve my low boost situation. My next step is to test the wastegate actuator and see if it suddenly got weaker for some reason. I don't have a lot of hope for that, either. One of the things worrying me is that the mitsu USED to creep a bit at high rpm and doesnt seem to be doing that anymore, which suggests to me that the turbo is damaged in some way. Rob Lloyd mentioned that when trying to run the Mitsu at high boost (18+ is what he said iirc), the extreme shaft speed results in the turbine wheel fins centrifugally splaying out and grinding themselves off on the turbine housing until it won't make those boost levels anymore. I don't know if this would have happened as quickly as this problem developed on my van, but the fact that the turbo spikes worse but doesnt creep anymore is making me think that one of the wheels got damaged. I checked for shaft play through the compressor side and it's not terrible (turns fine too), but i wouldnt be able to visually verify damage to the turbine without a borescope inspection.

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    Another odd thing is that when i pressurized my charge plumbing to 20-25psi, i got bubbles in the coolant overflow! Ok, so i have a leaking HG now. I guess my tbi pistons survived SOME detonation at some point because this engine has never been remotely hot since i put it together about a year ago. Coolant levels in both radiator and overflow are fine, so i'm guessing this is a recent development. The engine has been hiccuping a bit lately (totally independent of load) which i think might be an HEP starting to drop out, but I haven't tested for it in any way. However, the way it acts makes it seem like if it has one of these hiccups under full boost it would be violent and maybe dangerous to the motor. I experienced one in boost today and it was nasty feeling and sounding (open DP, of course..). This may be why i have a leaking HG now.

    Since i knew i had some kind of HG issue, i pulled the plugs hoping to spot a clean piston or some other clue, but they all look basically the same. Plugs all look the same too. I'm guessing it just hasn't been leaking for very long yet.

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    I guess the good news is that the van still feels fast enough to be entertaining at the boost level it's at. It ran 14.5 at about 1psi less boost at the $2016 Challenge on 2.0 60's. It feels like a ~14.3-14.4 van right now which is nice. Other than the hiccuping i need to look into, im pretty confident beating on it like this. Of course, I always end up using it like a truck and invariably have a bunch of cargo sliding around in the back even when i think i'm 'holding back' with my driving, so usually the fun of flooring it is immediately followed by being mad at myself about all the crap sliding around in the back when i slow down or turn.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #90
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    The plug on the far right (most probably #4?) looks "off". I'm willing to bet that's the hole that the gasket is leaking pressure on.

  11. #91
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    The plug on the far right (most probably #4?) looks "off". I'm willing to bet that's the hole that the gasket is leaking pressure on.
    Lil chunky on that one 1st pic. I picked up some of those little eyeloops at HF for looking at plugs. Sometimes a GOOD digital photo with flash is even better. This fuzzy pictureset makes them all look like fuel deposits.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  12. #92
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I was teaching another batch of students to do compression and leakdown tests, so we repeated them on my van since it's SUPER easy to learn leakdown on and i knew they would get to diagnose a real life problem or two. Found out the HG leak is on cyl 2 and 4. Cyl 1 seems to be a bit leaky through the valves (i did nothing to the head before installing it, could probably use a valve job), and cyl 3, the only one that wasn't showing a HG leak or an obvious sealing problem, showed 11% leakdown, which i think is pretty ok for used pistons matched willy-nilly into a different used block with intentionally huge ring gaps and no valve job on the head.

    So, i guess you could say that TBI pistons are stronger than my headgasket and that huge ring gaps don't ruin your cylinder leakdown.

    At least i'll get to port the wastegate when i replace the HG and address the crazy boost spike on e85 that probably blew my HG.

    I also did a borescope inspection on the turbine wheel and didn't see any obvious damage to it. The compressor wheel has some minor damage to the leading edges of the blades, but i don't see anything on the visible part of either wheel that explains why it won't make 20psi anymore. I suppose it's possible that my cylinder leakage in all its various causes is just keeping the engine from spinning it that hard, but that seems dubious too. I pulled a full vacuum on the wastegate can (should cause higher boost if it was blowing open) and saw no difference, so it's not a change in the wastegate can. Still not sure what the real answer is.

    Van still rips, though.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  13. #93
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Did you scope the wastegate area with the swingvalve pushed open?
    After prolonged maxing out the turbo the housings have a tendency to crack right along the wastgate port. I removed a severely cracked housing off of one of Gus's, but now can't remember which car. Maybe it was Slug.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    coat hanger the waste gate shut on the mitsu?

  15. #95
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Wayne, i didn't specifically look at the wastegate orifice, but that's definitely an idea. I suppose a big enough crack there could leak pressure that should be spinning the turbo. I havent really done anything to rule out a leak between the head and the turbo at all, actually. I guess i'll look into that closely when i pull the head.

    Masterjr33, pulling vacuum on the wastegate can should have changed my boost level if the wastegate was being blown open, but i saw no effect, so i'm assuming the wastegate can is not the difference that's causing the 'loss' of max boost.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  16. #96
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    well if you want an unabused mitsu. 20$ to cover shipping. just yanked one from a 106K plymouth acclaim with a vyinl top. granma car

  17. #97
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Quote Originally Posted by masterjr33 View Post
    well if you want an unabused mitsu. 20$ to cover shipping. just yanked one from a 106K plymouth acclaim with a vyinl top. granma car
    I want more "stock" turbo action! Send me a turbine housing Vigo....
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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