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Thread: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

  1. #21
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Just in case anyone on TM is also on Instagram, i post more pictures there than here lately. Not that I don't feel bad about it... but here's that.

    https://www.instagram.com/vigo327/



    Also, one of the funny things I kept telling my partner in crime in the build of this van (INVUjerry here) was that i would bet that pound for pound (of boost!) this mitsu-turbo 5spd van would be just as fast or faster than the SRT4/auto van i own (the 'OhioRob SRT4 Van'). I think the track has proved that out. This one ran 96.7mph at 20psi peak. There's a timeslip somewhere on this forum of OhioRob running 98mph in the SRT4 van at 22psi (both on their tiny stock turbos).

    I've always said the 5spd was a huge deal. I feel like I can now say with fair certainty that a 5spd swap on an auto-trans turbo caravan is worth about as much in acceleration as a stock SRT4 engine swap would be.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  2. #22
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    A built auto can help with acceleration. On street tires, i shift out of first at 60mph.

    But stock to stock i see what you mean. 5spds always feel faster since you get that pull feeling every shift. The auto feels like a plane taking off.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick (RIP)
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.699 @ 114.43 mph! - Oct 15th, 2022 Cecil County Dragway, MD)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  3. #23
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    But stock to stock i see what you mean. 5spds always feel faster since you get that pull feeling every shift. The auto feels like a plane taking off.
    On the street a 'fast' auto van might feel faster because you don't spin tires as much. I drove this van a few days ago and was spinning tires in 3rd gear going over road undulations at only ~13psi.

    But the lower power you have, the more the 'gearing under the curve' advantage of the 5spd helps. For TBI cars, for example, the 1/4 mile difference from Auto to 5spd is 2-3 SECONDS. On a 200hp van the difference in the 1/4 might be 1 second or less. And by the time your van can run 12s you are losing as much ET to shifting as you are getting from the gearing advantage.

    I have a friend with a turbo miata that traps 120 that cannot get into the 11.9s because he has to shift 1-5 in the 1/4, while we have people on this board who have cracked 10.9@124, only 4 mph more! Shifting time gets more important the quicker the car. But there are not many truly fast vans in this community. Most of the ones that actually exist would be quicker and faster with a 5spd.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  4. #24
    boostaholic
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I went 96 with a stock intercooler.I guess Ill find out what itll run with a better intercooler next weekend hopefully.Mine sure does 60's better though.

  5. #25
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I'm going to put an OBX in this thing whenever i start working on it again. I've had one sitting around forever that i got off a guy really cheap years back. I could probably corner weight it on someone's scales and adjust the coilovers to make it easier to spin both slicks, but that sounds like a lot of work to end up with a lumpy ride height when i could just install a differential that could also help me at GRM...

    Honestly, i feel like if an auto van can go 13.9@97 with the mitsu, a 5spd van should be able to at least go 13.7. I'm not really holding that out in front of myself as a goal, but i also think there's no point upgrading anything else for the time being (other than mods needed to switch from race gas to e85) if i'm not going to hook it anyway. So right now i think i will install the obx before i actually upgrade the turbo.

    I'm also curious if the penalty of not having a BOV is actually measurable in the 1/4.. I'm sure on a big turbo it would be huge, but i honestly don't notice much of anything after a shift as far as taking time to build boost back up. I'm going to install one anyway.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  6. #26
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I take the van up to the school i teach at every couple weeks or so. A few days ago i used it to take in an old transmission i was donating, and while it was there i used it to demonstrate some fuel system stuff we had been covering. Students love the turbo minivans so it's easy to keep their attention if i use it to teach anything. Anyway, one of the students took a quick vid and put it on Instagram which i reposted to my own.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BD95jD1x...ken-by=vigo327

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  7. #27
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    12's are tough, 14's are a good tune away. I did low 14's on mostly stock everything and street tires. Getting into the low 13's and faster takes time and effort.

    No one said TBI pistons won't work but you have to monitor knock etc. I melted a set because I didn't know the guy I bought the engine from used a TBI bottom end, lol. Start running more boost and a bigger turbo and you might find out the limit pretty quick, also E85 will be a big help.

    What's your weight? That plays a huge part? Do you have power everything? A/C? Mine's always been portly, averaging 3500 lbs without me,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  8. #28
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    It was 3020 as a TBI with no rear interior. As a turbo i'd estimate i added maybe 30 lbs to it between the turbo and intercooler so i'm assuming a 3250 race weight with me in it.

    Weight and automatic transmissions are definitely making it harder for some other vans to go fast. You (Simon) ran a fastest trap of 95 on a Garrett/auto iirc, and this van ran almost 97 on a Mitsu/5spd.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  9. #29
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor GLHS60's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Very informative thread!!

    I like to experiment and enjoy following projects like this

    Thanks
    Randy


    There is no logical reason to call an Engine a motor.

    Randy Hicks
    86 GLHS60
    86 GLHS 373 : SOLD, but never forgotten
    89 Turbo Minivan
    83 Turbo Rampage : SOLD
    Edmonton,Alberta,Canada

  10. #30
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    It was 3020 as a TBI with no rear interior. As a turbo i'd estimate i added maybe 30 lbs to it between the turbo and intercooler so i'm assuming a 3250 race weight with me in it.
    Not bad. Last time out, mine was 3700 with me in it, I weigh 180 lbs.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  11. #31
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    So with these big ring gaps I haven't noticed anything unusual as far as blowby or oil use. It seems my freshly-installed big ring gaps run about the same as a 'stock' worn out motor like most of my others. In fact, the top ring gaps i have are actually SMALLER than what came out of the original TBI engine which was running fine (but cracked block). My 2nd ring gaps are much bigger, though.

    To try to quantify this, i had my students practice compression and leakdown tests on the van today. We were limited to 'one pass' with each tester due to time, but i plan to re-run the test with other students to verify the results at some point.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Good-enough compression, and good-to-baddish leakdown that varied widely. All of my plugs looked the same, although i didn't take a picture of that. I am half expecting to get different results when i eventually repeat the test, but at least i have shown that compression did not suffer much from the ring gaps. Keep in mind there MAY be an effect on cranking VE from my 6* of cam retard, but i doubt it and am too lazy to test that.

    Also, here is a picture of a TBI piston/rod next to a turbo piston/rod (both 2.5L) for those who are curious.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And lastly, here's a pic of some of the turbo rods/pistons that i gleefully ignored while building this engine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  12. #32
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    It was 3020 as a TBI with no rear interior. As a turbo i'd estimate i added maybe 30 lbs to it between the turbo and intercooler so i'm assuming a 3250 race weight with me in it.
    I'd say more like 50 pounds added.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  13. #33
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Well, using 3250 race weight already comes out to ~230hp. I could say the van is heavier but I don't actually believe it was making any more power than that so it almost seems like claiming it was making more power than i actually think it was. Maybe if Shelgame's weight/trap #s calculate above 230hp than i'll believe its plausible that mine could be above that as well.


    Here is a picture of why you should always grind off the 'noise attenuation' panels that are spot welded into the later oil pans. This is the pan that is on this van before i cleaned it out. Unfortunately i ruined it by bashing it into the pavement (it now leaks) before i installed the current Raceland coilovers (which bottom out before anything touches the ground) so i'll have to repeat the cleaning process all over!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  14. #34
    turbo addict
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    That crap is a pita to clean out.

  15. #35
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Pics don't work.

    Yeah, that stuff is brutal for hiding dirt.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  16. #36
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I hate Photobucket. Too bad i have 1,500 pictures on it already, apparently.

    EDIT: Photobucket is down right now. I'll re-upload the pics to that post when it comes back up.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  17. #37
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    Photobucket is back up. I'm trying to remember to attach everything so the pics are more 'durable' over time.

    Here's some pics of the balance shaft oil block on this van. I've done this at least 3 ways, this is one of them. Tapped, loctite a bolt in, cut it off, and loctite another bolt to hold it down.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #38
    turbo addict
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    That's how I did mine too.

  19. #39
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I took a turn and slowed all the way down to 1000 rpm in 5th gear today and figured i'd stay in 5th and see how the boost acted to give y'all more info on the cam retard.

    With 6* of cam retard on a stock 2.5 T1 setup (including stock exhaust with closed cutout replacing the cat), the mitsu started making boost at about 1600 rpm. It was at 4psi @ 2000 rpm and hit my boost set point of 10 psi at 2400rpm.

    The cam retard definitely slows the boost rise, but it's still an early spooling setup and feels normal to drive, just not the same kind of normal a stock 2.5 T1 is. With the 5spd i prefer it this way vs stock. It still breaks the tires loose in 2nd gear so once i am in boost i definitely don't feel a lack of power anywhere. I havent found any downside to this on a turbo this small (still makes 18-20" idle vac). I would definitely like to try the same cam retard with a TII garrett but i don't know if it will happen on this van.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  20. #40
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Minivans are Hard To Go Fast In / TBI Bottom Ends Cant Handle Turbocharging

    I have 2g neon Raceland rear coilovers on the front of this Caravan. After my earlier research (in this thread: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ability-w-pics ) I wasn't hopeful that they'd be great for lowering, but shortly after getting the minivan running this time around i bashed the oil pan real good going through a dip too fast and decided it was worth a try just to stiffen it a bit and hit bumpstops sooner even if i couldn't get it any lower. It actually turned out better than i expected. I was able to lower a bit more than where stock k-car struts/springs had it while still having a bit of up travel and a pretty comfortable ride (for coilovers and 2" of travel).



    In order to fit the coilovers i had to grind down the strut shaft on my bench grinder to fit through the stock k-car strut mount (same as i did with my first neon strut conversion 10 years ago). I also had to enlarge both holes in the strut yoke. I slotted the top one for camber. I had to use a flap disc to remove some material from the back of my spindles to get negative camber as the spindle was hitting the strut while camber was still positive. This is because the orientation of the holes to the strut body is not the same as a k-car strut.

    I think the most interesting thing I found while doing this conversion is that the coilover spring centered right up into the stock upper spring perch. This means i have a completely stock upper strut mount/spring perch assembly with stock strut bearing, rubber isolation, and no noises at all while turning or going over bumps. I'll add pics of this later today.




    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

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