High PSI Manual Boost Controller

[DoubleD]

Anyone know which manual boost controllers can handle high boost? I am looking to find one that can safely handle 40 psi as I am planning to run upwards of 38 PSI. I was looking at a turbosmart MBC, but I am not sure what will work the best for my end goal and if this model can handle over 30 PSI

[shadow88]

Why do you want a boost controller at all? It sounds like you want the "all of it" setting and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you have the fuel and timing to suit it. I have a shimmed back WGA for maximum boost without a controller and it's works fine. Larger turbos would create a higher maximum boost than the little turbo I use at 32 psi max.

[DoubleD]

I am not sure if everything is there to give "all of it" I want to be able to slowly increase the boost above 30 PSI to my fuel limit. Everything else is there to support the power.

[rx2mazda]

I am not sure if everything is there to give "all of it" I want to be able to slowly increase the boost above 30 PSI to my fuel limit. Everything else is there to support the power.

There is no MANUAL boost controller I know of that can slowly increase the boost over 30psi, or any PSI for that matter. That's not how manual boost controls work, They have an adjustable pressure threshold once it's reached the boost comes on. You could set up a 2-stage manual boost controller using a hobbs switch or solenoid. But I don't see the point in going slowly from 30psi to 38 lol. Usually people wanna ramp slowly up to high boost to help with traction....but at 30 psi you should be cooking already!

AMS-500 is a nice electronic boost controller. That's what I use and it's solid. Many other cheaper and more expensive models also. good luck.

[DoubleD]

I don't want it to slowly increase, I want to manually adjust the boost while tuning, then I will leave it set. So, if I have the fuel for 37 PSI, I would dial the controller in for that level and leave it there.

[contraption22]

There is no MANUAL boost controller I know of that can slowly increase the boost over 30psi, or any PSI for that matter. That's not how manual boost controls work, They have an adjustable pressure threshold once it's reached the boost comes on. You could set up a 2-stage manual boost controller using a hobbs switch or solenoid. But I don't see the point in going slowly from 30psi to 38 lol. Usually people wanna ramp slowly up to high boost to help with traction....but at 30 psi you should be cooking already!

AMS-500 is a nice electronic boost controller. That's what I use and it's solid. Many other cheaper and more expensive models also. good luck.

I think he means to raise the boost in small increments with each pass until he reaches his fuel limit, not have it ramp up slowly during a pass.

That said, it still seems like a bad idea. You want to have more the ability to fuel way beyond your power goal. Finding your fuel limit at 38psi could have you shopping for new pistons... or long block.

[rx2mazda]

I don't want it to slowly increase, I want to manually adjust the boost while tuning, then I will leave it set. So, if I have the fuel for 37 PSI, I would dial the controller in for that level and leave it there.

AHHH, ok sorry lol. I misunderstood you. It's a PITA to do that with a manual boost controller. But if you have it in car you should be fine. PM Jackson, he runs a pretty decent MBC on all his cars that he plumbs into the car. I know for sure they have no issues going to 40psi since I've had his cars up there!

[DoubleD]

I've used the MBC under the hood before its annoying on the setup having to keep fiddling under the hood. Ideally I can get the stock waste gate solenoid to function above 26 PSI, I am probably just going to have to do some trial and error. I can say before the computer starts limiting the boost after a flash and the car pulls 32 PSI, its a lot of fun. Tire traction at 100 on street tires makes things really interesting. I would really love to get the stock boost control to keep handling higher pressures.

[contraption22]

I've used the MBC under the hood before its annoying on the setup having to keep fiddling under the hood. Ideally I can get the stock waste gate solenoid to function above 26 PSI, I am probably just going to have to do some trial and error. I can say before the computer starts limiting the boost after a flash and the car pulls 32 PSI, its a lot of fun. Tire traction at 100 on street tires makes things really interesting. I would really love to get the stock boost control to keep handling higher pressures.

Perhaps you can use the stock computer to control a better solenoid.

[DoubleD]

The stock solenoid is a bleed type, so until the specified pressure is reached, the solenoid is simply venting the boost pressure. I am going to play around with the waste gate tables and I am hopeful I can get this to function.

[contraption22]

Talk to Warren Hall about tuning the oe stuff for high boost.

[mopar-tech]

Someone say "all of it" ?

=)

[csxtra]

Talk to Warren Hall about tuning the oe stuff for high boost.

I haven't been able to get the stock stuff to control high boost, but it has mostly been a lack of tuning time, so I don't know if it is possible.

If you're looking for a better solenoid valve, the MAC 3-port boost solenoid valves from Ebay (like those sold by circuitse7en.net) can be controlled by the stock computer, and should be capable of controlling to those boost levels.

Reeves and I were messing around with increasing boost targets based on speed in the Logic Module, with a MAC 3-port valve instead of the stock solenoid, but we ran out of time before Drag Week last year to get the stock wastegate control tables dialed in.

So instead we created a 3-stage Manual Boost Controller setup with 2 MAC valves and 3 "G-valves" controlled by an external microcontroller to increase boost levels based on the vehicle speed.

DoubleD, if you are looking to build a manual boost controller that will hold 40+ psi, McMaster-Race-Carr has a high-pressure version of the standard "G-valve", part number 50265K23:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#50265k23/=10udhgx

The body and valve are different than the normal 48935K25 valve, but if you replace the spring and knurled end from the standard 48935K25 G-valve with the yellow spring and knurled end that comes with the 50265K23 valve, it should give you the high boost levels you're looking for as long as the spring in your wastegate can is strong enough to hold the gate shut at those boost levels. But go REAL light on the preload, with the yellow spring it doesn't take much to reach those boost levels.

But as mentioned above, I'm sure Jackson has something he has had good luck with at those boost levels if you want to go with a MBC.

[Lotashelbys]

PM Jackson, he runs a pretty decent MBC on all his cars that he plumbs into the car. I know for sure they have no issues going to 40psi since I've had his cars up there!

As long as you turn the boost DOWN to 38psi you will be good lol....

[DoubleD]

I haven't been able to get the stock stuff to control high boost, but it has mostly been a lack of tuning time, so I don't know if it is possible.

If you're looking for a better solenoid valve, the MAC 3-port boost solenoid valves from Ebay (like those sold by circuitse7en.net) can be controlled by the stock computer, and should be capable of controlling to those boost levels.

Reeves and I were messing around with increasing boost targets based on speed in the Logic Module, with a MAC 3-port valve instead of the stock solenoid, but we ran out of time before Drag Week last year to get the stock wastegate control tables dialed in.

So instead we created a 3-stage Manual Boost Controller setup with 2 MAC valves and 3 "G-valves" controlled by an external microcontroller to increase boost levels based on the vehicle speed.

DoubleD, if you are looking to build a manual boost controller that will hold 40+ psi, McMaster-Race-Carr has a high-pressure version of the standard "G-valve", part number 50265K23:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#50265k23/=10udhgx

The body and valve are different than the normal 48935K25 valve, but if you replace the spring and knurled end from the standard 48935K25 G-valve with the yellow spring and knurled end that comes with the 50265K23 valve, it should give you the high boost levels you're looking for as long as the spring in your wastegate can is strong enough to hold the gate shut at those boost levels. But go REAL light on the preload, with the yellow spring it doesn't take much to reach those boost levels.

But as mentioned above, I'm sure Jackson has something he has had good luck with at those boost levels if you want to go with a MBC.

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, if it will work with the stock ECU I will be golden. I will see how far I can push the stock solenoid, if it's not 35+PSI, then Ill be installing this solenoid. I prefer electronic boost control for many reasons!

- - - Updated - - -

As long as you turn the boost DOWN to 38psi you will be good lol....

I had some good runs with your buddy in the 8 valve Daytona, I'm coming for the Green Daytona next year! Not sure I will still have enough for the CSX, you have a pretty good weight advantage on me. It will be fun to compare 93 plus meth injection on a FWD Stage 5 ECU to E85 and an agressive tune made by me!

[DoubleD]

I did a test last night and made a test tune, I used Wowzers updated boost target display for 4BarBoostTarget. I set MPTune to a boost target of 38PSI, fired the car up and now it shows a boost target of 38PSI. So the ECU side of things is fixed now. I went back and watched a few end of the year logs, I noticed in all my high boost attempts the boost stopped climbing at 26 PSI, I think I found the limit of the stock solenoid, not bad really. Anyone who wants to build a "Stage 6" tune can get a steady 25 PSI out of the stock electronics, For the record, I can safely get 23PSI on Premium fuel with out knock using 72lb/hr injectors. Even on pump the car is pretty quick.
I am onto "stage 7" so the stock solenoid is out the window. I am looking at this MAC unit and the wiring looks simple enough, will I need to modify the waste gate tables for this solenoid. Looking at getting some help setting up the MAC solenoid using the stock ECU and wiring, am I going to need to add a relay? Looking to get a little help on the front side and then I can help whoever down the road.

One last thing, how were you getting the ability to adjust boost per MPH, my tables in MPTune only have one point to adjust, perhaps I need some customization by Wowzer, not very helpful?

[ShelGame]

You only have 1 boost target table? There should be like 6-8 of them. One of them is boost vs. speed already. It's used by the factory to 'save' automatic transmissions at low speeds where there is a lot of converter slip.

[DoubleD]

I have multiple tables, but I am hoping to do something like CSextra mentioned, I would like to have a boost per gear, the easiest way would be to link that to speed I think.
In the past I have only been using the part throttle table to drive the boost targets, I set all the others very high. If we could figure out the switchable high/low boost, I could also make that work too.

[csxtra]

I am onto "stage 7" so the stock solenoid is out the window. I am looking at this MAC unit and the wiring looks simple enough, will I need to modify the waste gate tables for this solenoid. Looking at getting some help setting up the MAC solenoid using the stock ECU and wiring, am I going to need to add a relay? Looking to get a little help on the front side and then I can help whoever down the road.

One last thing, how were you getting the ability to adjust boost per MPH, my tables in MPTune only have one point to adjust, perhaps I need some customization by Wowzer, not very helpful?

You only have 1 boost target table? There should be like 6-8 of them. One of them is boost vs. speed already. It's used by the factory to 'save' automatic transmissions at low speeds where there is a lot of converter slip.

I have multiple tables, but I am hoping to do something like CSextra mentioned, I would like to have a boost per gear, the easiest way would be to link that to speed I think.
In the past I have only been using the part throttle table to drive the boost targets, I set all the others very high. If we could figure out the switchable high/low boost, I could also make that work too.

DoubleD,

Here comes a dump of a ton of info related to boost control:

1. The MAC valve doesn't require a relay, it will run directly off of the factory wiring in place of the stock boost control solenoid (or at least it does on a Logic Module car, so it should be the same for the later electronics)

2. As Rob (ShelGame) mentioned, the Boost vs. Speed table was designed to protect automatic transmissions and therein lies the rub.

In the Logic Module, the code does a check to see if the calibration is an automatic or 5 speed calibration. If running a 5 speed calibration, the code ignores the boost vs. speed table. My first thought was to just create an automatic cal instead, but that brings other idle control changes with it, and I didn't want to open a can of worms by going to an automatic cal.

I'm assuming that the later (SMEC, SBEC) code also skips the Boost vs. Speed table lookup for 5 speed cals, but Rob can verify this. My workaround was to create a custom Turbonator .asm file with a simple change that didn't skip over the lookup of the boost vs. speed target if running a 5 speed calibration. I tweaked the Boost vs. Speed table in my existing Turbonator template to increase boost as MPH increased, then re-compiled with the new .asm, and I could log the boost target and see it change as the vehicle speed changed.

3. The biggest challenge of increasing boost target based on speed is wheelspin. Since the speed distance sensor is on the drive axle, if you lose traction the vehicle speed increases which gives you more boost which gives more wheelspin, etc. Reeves and I were trying to limit boost in the lower gears to improve 1/4 mile times and consistency, so this was a big issue for us.

There are two ways around this:
a. Boost by gear. This requires dividing the RPM by the vehicle speed to determine what gear you are in and adding an additional table in the cal to set the boost target accordingly. This should be possible (right Rob? ) in the later electronics because they have a divide instruction in the processor. This wasn't an option for the Logic Module because it is so ancient that it doesn't have a divide instruction .
b. Rear wheel speed sensor. This is the route Reeves and I took using homemade tone rings and industrial proximity sensors. More information can be found here: CustomRearWheelSpeedSensorInfo

It wasn't trivial putting it together, but once we got it done the reliability has been rock solid for the past few years. The biggest downside of this approach is that the 9 pulses per revolution works pretty well for a 205-50-15, but different sized tires will throw off speedometer accuracy. This has not been a challenge for my CSX as it still has a cable-driven speedometer, but electronic speedo cars will be thrown off.

I hope I explained this all clearly, I'm hoping you can reach your goal of controlling high boost with the stock electronics

Warren