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Thread: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

  1. #41
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    What analog sensors does the TCM have on it's own? IE, not data it gets from the CCD bus.
    There are actually a lot of analog inputs. I was going to separate them out from the pinout I just put together (mainly from my 89 book and the refinements book published in 98), but figured I would list the whole thing. My sources had typos, so there may be small errors:

    1: TRS T1 Sense (Pull Up/PRNDL SW Grounds)
    2: Back-Up Lamp Relay Coil (Grounds)
    3: TRS T3 Sense (Reverse) (Pull Down? /Neutral Safety SW Powers)
    4: CCD BUS (-)
    5: NC (Some CCD Bus (+)) (Autostick Upshift Switch Sense on some Later Models starting in 96)
    6: NC OR Distributor Signal OR Crankshaft Position Signal OR Power Ground (Depending on year/Engine)
    7: SCI Transmit (some -dropped after 89, then brought back later on)
    8: Ignition Switch (Start Signal Only - so Pull down input)
    9: OD Pressure Switch Sense
    10: NC (Torque Management Request for some starting in 96-97)
    11: Ignition Switch (Start/Run)
    12: Throttle Position Sensor Signal
    13: Speed Sensor Ground (both input and output sensors)
    14: Output Speed Sensor Signal (ATX Rear)
    15: Transmission Control Relay Coil (Outputs 12V)
    16: Input from Transmission Control Relay Contact (+12V) -Module checks to make sure the relay is OK
    17: Input from Transmission Control Relay Contact (+12V)
    18: NC (Overdrive Off Switch: AS body 94-95)
    19: 2-4 Solenoid Control
    20: L-R Solenoid Control
    21-40: NC
    41: TRS T41 Sense (Pull Up/Neutral Safety SW Grounds)
    42: TRS T42 Sense (Pull Up/PRNDL SW Grounds)
    43: CCD Bus (+)
    44: NC (Some CCD Bus (-)) (Autostick Downshift Switch Sense on some starting in 95)
    45: Distributor Signal (engine RPM)
    46 SCI Receive (some -dropped after 89, then brought back later on)
    47: 2-4 Pressure Switch Sense
    48: NC (Used in programming newer modules that have EEPROM (ATXII))
    49: NC (Some 94-96 Brake/O.D. Off Switch Sense (pull-up))
    50: L-R Pressure Switch Sense
    51: Sensor Ground (including Throttle Position Sensor, Distributor)
    52: Input (Turbine) Speed Sensor Signal (ATX Front)
    53: Signal Ground
    54: Signal Ground (Transmission Temperature sensor starting in 96)
    55: NC
    56: Fused Battery Feed (+)
    57: Power Ground
    58: Power Ground (VSS Signal on some later models 95+)
    59: U.D. Solenoid Control
    60: O.D. Solenoid Control

  2. #42
    Garrett booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I have the following CCD Development Tools cart for the DRB II that may come in handy for this project:



    In a earlier post you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    That looks like a regular Cart, just socketed. I'd love to copy the chip when you get done playing If/when I get around to working on the TCM's it will probably come in handy...
    That was over two years ago. Will this come in handy for you?


    Also the best TCM to get may probably be the one for the Mexican Phantom/Lebaron/Spirt with the Turbo II and A604. They were part numbers 04711693 and 04729253. They were later updated via the massive 95 update to software part number 04774734 which should still be available on TechAuthority's website.

  3. #43
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor Ondonti's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I would like to use the most reliable chip that can be worked with and I would point out that AWD transfercases with speed sensors are more rare than that supposed 1995 date would have you think.
    Brent
    GREAT DEPRESSION RACING
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    1994 Spirit 3.0 - 12.3@113 15 psi - Daily Holset He341 280whp 304ft/lb @10psi
    1994 Spirit 3.0 a670 - Wife's - Disassembled
    1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE
    1994 Duster 3.0 A543
    1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TII non IC, T1 31TH
    1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver, 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts, 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag
    1998 Dodge 12v Cummins 47re 4x4 4dr longbed. No fuel plate. Mack plug, AFC & Spring mods. Boost elbow.

  4. #44
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by countryathlon View Post
    There are actually a lot of analog inputs. I was going to separate them out from the pinout I just put together (mainly from my 89 book and the refinements book published in 98), but figured I would list the whole thing. My sources had typos, so there may be small errors:
    Yeah, I have the pinout.

    What I really want to know is, which of these signals are 0-5v analog voltages, rather just an on/off switch. For example, are the pressure 'switches' simple on/off signals? Or is the ECU reading an analog signal that could be 0v, or 3.7v or 2.1v or 5v? If it's analog, what's the relationship between the voltage and pressure? If it's not analog, what pressure does it 'switch' at? This is stuff that I would guess would be in a repair manual somewhere, but I don't have it.

    I'm looking at the code trying to figure out what the RAM locations are. There are at least 4 analog channels that are read by the ECU. If I know what they might be, I can probably name those 4 RAM locations. One of those channels seems to be more important than the other in that it is read (scanned) many different times in a single program loop. The other 3 are a 1-time scan per program loop.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
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  5. #45
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I may be able to help find some info at work, there is LOADS of stuff/books/material laying around. I found a DRB 2 the other day. I can scan anything Chrysler 1984-2007. We have a 96ish Stratus I can hook it up to and see what it tells me about thr 41te. I also have access to Mitchell OnDemand so I can check that out. I have a close relationship with the local chrysler dealer. I was there last week meeting the General Manager and supposedly they are going to give me access to Chrysler service info and online training. I'll try and dig up some info for you.
    Last edited by RattFink; 12-21-2015 at 03:31 PM.

  6. #46
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Tried to read the 3 other EATX controllers I have (4796122, one marked for a 93 3.3 Dynasty, and another one unmarked. They all seem to have slightly different board layouts, 2 of them use a 28C512 (64k) chip, and the other uses a 28-pin (must be a 87C257 or other 32k chip). None of them would read with my benchtop reader that worked fine for the '89 TCM. Time to get the logic analyzer out.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

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  7. #47
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Ahh, gotcha. The throttle position sensor is definitely one -a direct connection split off from the ECM. The 3 pressure switches are part of the solenoid pack assembly. From the 12v Supply, inside the pack there is a series resistor prior to each switch. Each switch then goes to ground when activated. From everything I have found, these switches are tested with compressed air to see if they are 'good', so finding the exact pressures might be difficult (there is probably some acceptable tolerance). Just as a side note the 4 solenoids are also connected to 12v, and the TCM sinks the current to activate each.

    Yeah the early non-finned controllers use the 87C257. The part-number stickers usually fall off of these -all I have ever seen is a glue-spot. I have read the part numbers with my scan tool, and shining a bright light inside, see a 3-digit number written on the chip that agrees. The eatxII (around 93-95) use the 28F512, and the 96+ with 7 clips between fins (eatxIII) have a 28F210. Yeah that 4796122 was the final software release for 90-91 C / Y w/3.3/3.8L.

    I'm all new to this and curious to hear more about your setup for dumping the memory.. -A while back I had tore apart a coveted 4796121 to try to get to the chip to pull it, but got busy with other things before desoldering (didn't have a chip programmer then anyway). I hadn't thought about portions of the ROM stored elsewhere... Maybe it is best not to pull it? I bought the flash programming kit, but don't have a DRBII that it was made for. I'm sure I have an FTDI cable somewhere.. My book shows SCI pins 7 and 46 for '89 (with a typo), then they aren't referenced again until the eatxIII...

  8. #48
    turbo addict
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Ok i only found 3 out of a spindle of cds i think someone thought they make great shot gun targets . now is there a way for me image and send them or would it be just better for mail them ?

  9. #49
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I found a Chrysler Technical Training handbook on the 45RFE, it states, "The pressure switches do not indicate how much pressure exists, though they do open at approximately 11 psi and close at approximately 23 psi." I would imagine the 41te is similar?

  10. #50
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Bingo, found a 41te book. It stated the same specs about the pressure switches as the 45RFE.
    Last edited by RattFink; 12-21-2015 at 04:31 PM.

  11. #51
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Book is dated 1997 fyi
    Last edited by RattFink; 12-21-2015 at 04:32 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Looks like 5 analog inputs. Tps, ckp, trans temp sensor, iss, oss. Ckp is most likely the "important" one you were talking about. The text stresses it's importance and it's wired redundant. I've got specs for a lot of the above listed sensors.

  13. #53
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    CKP isn't an 'analog' signal, it's a switch. Actually, it's not just a switch, it's a frequency input (same for ISS and OSS). Important for sure, but not a 0-5v analog signal. It's not the one I'm looking for. Probably it's TPS.

    It sounds like trans temp and TPS are the only true analog inputs. Which is odd, because for sure the TCM scans 4 channels.

    Now, what about the trans gear position sensor? Is that a series of switches? Or does each position have a specific voltage associated with each position? That's how the later cruise control switches work. That would technically be an 'analog' input...
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    Rob Lloyd
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  14. #54
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    TRS

  15. #55
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    12v applied to each switch, each switch closed by a certain combination of gear selections.

  16. #56
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Yeah your right on the ckp,iss,oss those would just be frequency. My bad. There are indirect inputs received from the pcm also, some of which would be analog to the pcm, but I'm not sure if the signal would be changed before being sent to the tcm.

  17. #57
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by RattFink View Post
    Yeah your right on the ckp,iss,oss those would just be frequency. My bad. There are indirect inputs received from the pcm also, some of which would be analog to the pcm, but I'm not sure if the signal would be changed before being sent to the tcm.
    In that case, the scaled value come over the CCD bus. Not the analog signal. So, it wouldn't be one of those.

    Thanks for the pic for the range selector. According to that, they are individual switches.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

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  18. #58
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    So on an 89 3.0 v6 the distributor has a HEP in it which produces a digital ckp signal for the ignition/fuel system? The stuff I was reading was for newer models with a dedicated ckp sensor. I think the ISS and OSS on the trans would be considered analog still as they are both 2 wire variable reluctance sensors that create AC voltage. It wouldn't be a 0-5v necessarily though, maybe there is a chart somewhere that relates ISS/OSS speed to a voltage value.

  19. #59
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    I think it's just a frequency counter. The voltage would raise and lower with rpm but i don't know if that by itself would be nearly as accurate as the frequency of the waveform.

    This is an idea for a later date, but one of the things we probably eventually have to figure out is how to be able to brake boost to 3500+ rpm without it setting a '1st gear ratio error' code and dumping into 2nd gear limp mode.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  20. #60
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: TCM Reverse Engineering Project

    Quote Originally Posted by RattFink View Post
    So on an 89 3.0 v6 the distributor has a HEP in it which produces a digital ckp signal for the ignition/fuel system? The stuff I was reading was for newer models with a dedicated ckp sensor. I think the ISS and OSS on the trans would be considered analog still as they are both 2 wire variable reluctance sensors that create AC voltage. It wouldn't be a 0-5v necessarily though, maybe there is a chart somewhere that relates ISS/OSS speed to a voltage value.
    Pretty sure all the 3.0's have an optical pickup.
    Rob M.
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